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I'm convinced Riot doesn't care for what they've done to supports

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Wasselin ?? Senior Member
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08-08-2011

I like the idea of sharing resources because you would feel like you and your lane partner are a team, not the support babysitting them and giving up everything just for them. People don't like to do that, especially in random play where you aren't sure of your lane partner's ability.

However, isn't the problem that not having enough gold to by items isn't fun? I think a wriggles for supports that would make wards cheaper or more gp5 items would help. An alternate way to get gold...

Or maybe use that quest mechanic from dominion somehow and give supports a "place a ward in the river" quest that gives back gold. That's a stupid example but I'm sure Riot could think of something better.

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pwntifex maximus ?? Senior Member
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08-08-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost Walrus View Post
It has nothing to do with support items.

Here's the example I always use.

You have 4300 gold. You have two characters on each side.

The side with a carry with an IE and a support with no items will beat a carry with BF Sword + Pickaxe and support with Blasting Wand every time, because the way items in this game work, having more gold/completed items on one character makes them stronger.
The point is having a real support item, not a Blasting Wand. Something that negates the benefit of the enemy having items stacked on one teammate. Maybe anti-support items that negate the effectiveness of the enemy (unfarmed) supporter. Or Anti-CC items that save teammates.

That is what I mean by support items. The other roles will get better use out of other stat items. But a whole set of utility items that have an effect on teammates, like auras, could be improved or expanded.

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standin ?? Senior Member
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08-08-2011

And as others keep bringing up, developing more support items, the one thing I will say is so far every item meant to be used by supports has been abused by tanky-dps. So, I'm not entirely sure how it's going to be possible to avoid that.

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Erestem ?? Senior Member
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08-08-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurelia View Post
The only solution that has been tossed around that I think would work is split resource sharing in duo lanes, but its a really big change that really will flip a game mechanic upside down.


Of course if anyone has any good ideas, I'm all ears.
Couldn't you make this applicable only to support champions? Or maybe just add something to their passives along the lines of, 'Gain 15% gold earned by nearby allied champions from kills' to help alleviate the problem? It would encourage the support's teammate to get last hits to help feed the support and encourage the support to make sure their teammate could farm freely as much as possible. The gold earned this way wouldn't actually be split from the carry getting kills, it would be bonus gold like TF's passive. Basically, everytime your teammate kills a minion, the support gets a free 2-3 gold. If your teammate gets first blood (450 gold I believe), you would get a bonus 67 gold on top of any assist gold.

This would provide support classes with more gold on average, encourage more of a support role in lane and allow them to buy the items that are required without having to take the kills themselves. It would be slower than last hitting, but faster than the current meta of not getting anything.

Just a suggestion, it's probably not a great idea but it's all I got.

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logosloki ?? Senior Member
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08-08-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurelia View Post
The problem "supports not wanting to farm" is a deeper problem that stems from the nature of what support is.

Since resource is limited, it will be optimal to place the resource onto champions that you want to support. In almost all cases with the exception of end game (full items) it is optimal to stack resource onto a single target... its sort of the same reason why you try to feed kill gold to a specific person when possible.

The other solution (which I've heard brought up again and again) is to increase the scaling on supports to cause them to want to farm, but does this really solve anything?

Problem 1: Support Ratios become OP and the person who doesn't want to farm shifts to another character in the lane. Ex: Suddenly tanks/tanky dps don't want farm and they go bottom lane instead to babysit the support who wants to farm.

Problem 2: Adding damage ratios that are strong enough to want support to farm causes supports to be only better at what you don't pick them for.

The only solution that has been tossed around that I think would work is split resource sharing in duo lanes, but its a really big change that really will flip a game mechanic upside down.


Of course if anyone has any good ideas, I'm all ears.
decrease the cost of mid tier items? As some people are saying the high tier items are on another plane compared to the mid and low tier items, it causes people to rush for them. If mid tier items were cheaper then support and people with less farm can reach for "the next best thing" rather than "the next best thing to a kick in the bum".

either that or make the game uneven. retag the champions and give innate bonuses to having a 'role' such as the role 'support' increases gold from assists.

though if you were in a nerfhammer mood then nerfing high tier items across the board might (might) have an effect as now they become situational/late game items rather than rush items.

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IrrationalNoob ?? Senior Member
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08-08-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurelia View Post
It might be the optimal idea. I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, I'm saying that its a complete shift of an already established game pattern.
The meta would shift away from support duo lane if you forced split resources, because that is less farm from someone who benefits from item stacking.

I would play roam taric every game so I would only take resources from the carry when they needed a heal and a gank attempt. Then you would have to balance out roam versus duo lane, where roam would always be superior.

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Thunderfrog ?? Senior Member
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08-08-2011

Someone mentioned creep assists.. which seemed like a good idea.

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Sheapy ?? Senior Member
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08-08-2011

It will always happen and there isn't anything that you can do. Unless you completely rework the entire way champions are designed, there are ALWAYS going to be some that are better late game than others. And because you want to win, you'd stack your farm on THAT champion who has a higher probably to carry late game than a support with farm. (I.E why they're called carries). The fact is items are better on other champions than common supports which is why it's done.

Why do you want Sona to farm? To stay alive? To do more damage? If you want damage than you want someone who scales better to farm because they get more "bang for their buck". Even without farm her ult still CC's, her auras still give plenty, and she is still useful. What about Annie with no farm? You want an Annie who's entire skill set increases with more items or that Sona who with even farm still only does as much as an unfarmed Annie? Her entire kit is based off of her nukes. Why give Sona more farm than Annie? Why give Sona more farm than Ashe?

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Shurelia Shurelia's Avatar ?? Associate Game Designer
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08-08-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by standin View Post
You have no idea how relieved I am when you say that.
As I said, I've loved your work in the past, and as I'm reading now, apparently some of my impressions on what you've thought were wrong. So apologies to you for that, with it being in the OP post and all.
I guess this eventually just goes back to my main concern on gold nerfs and how supports can earn said gold then.
I'm not sure what the solution is. It could be split resource... it could be making more support items that build from GP5.

Maybe its ok that supports don't want to farm.

It's an open discussion at the moment.

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Yukarine ?? Senior Member
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08-08-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheapy View Post
[...] Even without farm her ult still CC's, her auras still give plenty, and she is still useful. What about Annie with no farm? Her entire kit is based off of her nukes. Why give Sona more farm than Annie? Why give Sona more farm than Ashe?
A dead annie or a dead ashe wont be of any use, will they

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