Originally Posted by Whyumai
Actually, I don't just think the counter to lane sustainability is killing it. I think the counter to everything is killing it. lane sustainability just creates frustrating passive play, where, as long as you don't kill the enemy players just kill enemy minions, and just harass players and force players to be recall, you win. The counter to this play is actually much harder to do. It's also much more fun. That's probably my point. The killing is the fun stuff, everything else is much less so. However, if i'm rewarded more for passive play then aggressive play, shouldn't I play passively? if I just push someone out of lane while uber farming, isn't that the right thing to do since i'll do better now and later? If passive play is rewarded, why play aggressively at all? I'd also argue that forcing someone to "b" all the time, actually makes the game shorter, since, i get more farm, they get less, i'm better they are weaker. So for less risk, I get more reward. It's not alot of fun for the person who's forced to recall all the time.
And the support change for more gold when killed (if they are getting assists) hasn't come in, yet. That's this patch.
Eve was problematic, but, she's now also not very useful currently. There's got to be some sort of common ground where she's useful and not so toxic to game play.
Junglers don't gank at level 1. Generally you have some time before junglers start popping out of the jungle to gank you. Normally it's level 3-4 or so. Should be able to "b" before then and get a ward. It's also problematic, but, not as bad. There are counters that can be used before junglers come for you without nerfing yourself too badly.
I just think that anything that encourages passive play is bad. Try a game without junglers and 0 cs support and see if you don't enjoy it more.
I've never been ganked by a stealth champion previous to a few levels in the lane either.
But Junglers have the option of ganking at level 1, same as stealth champions.
Neither is more effective than the other.
They both have one skill, and if it's stealth, then they're not that big of a threat.
You're more likely to die to Purple Caster Minions in my opinion.
I understand where you're coming from with the whole "I get the same reward or more by playing passively" point. But eh.. I've never felt encouraged to be passive in this game and I don't really understand why anyone else has either.
My point I guess I'm making isn't that sustainability is the problem. It's the people who lane against players with higher sustainability who refuse to commit to fights and/or kill the other champions in the lane. Which is why they're forced to B, why they become so gimped later on, etc... It's a strategy, not a problem.
People with high sustainability should play to their strengths, sustainability.
People with low sustainability shouldn't play to their weaknesses, low sustainability.
If you know that the champions in the lane have higher sustain than you, your objective is to kill them, not to harass them occasionally and watch them heal up what effort you put into it. Commit to fights, kill them, force them to respawn, farm CS while they're gone. If you're incapable of doing this, then you have some terrible counter-picking at work.
It's not the mechanics at fault in my opinion. I've never been pushed out of a lane from a support/carry bot. I'm no 2k ELO player, so I can't really say it's going to mean something to anyone else playing the game. I might be 2k ELO if I actually participated in playing ranked games, I don't know. I've just grown accustomed to normal games, from all the talk about how people in ranked usually play the same champions all the time. Lot less stress, and more enjoyment.