To be honest I had no problem keeping up with levels. My CS was pretty high (can't give you numbers off the top of my head) and considering how successful the ganks were, I always was ahead or at the same level with my team mates.

Also answering the question with the person that said T. Udyr should be "weaker" after the patch....well you would think so but considering you can clear the creeps in a pretty fast fashion and gank with a higher success rate, I would say in the long run T. Udyr seems to be the more appropriate route to take. But don't take my word for it. Go test him out, use different runes and see how he is.

gank better how? you sit in pheonix stance for 3 hits while tiger procs on the first one. Bear > tiger > turtle in succession gives you the stun the dot and then you get health and mana back while the dot is procing. That's the exact same reasoning with dragon and baron too. It's just not as efficient.

As for split pushing sure pheonix can clear waves faster in the mid-late game, but it's not like waves are really that hard to clear as either one. Then when udyr gets to a tower in tiger he melts it considerably faster than a pheonix ever will.

Udyr is one of the few tanky dps who doesn't work with Atmogs. Turtle stance works like infinite HP and scales with Armor, MR, and CDR. The last thing he needs is a pure HP item like Warmogs. Not to mention he benefits less from Atma's crit because of turtle.

Thank you, and also I like how you said people have the "old jungle mindset". Thats what I am trying to get at. With the new jungles, farming you jungle wont cut it. You need to have good ganking abilities and still have a good jungle time. What alot of people look for in jungling is ONE thing. And that is clear times, how fast they can clear the jungle. Sure thats great and all but I don't think riot isn't aware of the fact that different champions have different jungle times. In order to counteract this the faster ones tend to be on the "weaker side". For example P.Udyr clears it fast but has a weaker ganking ability then Tiger. Tiger is a bit slower but has a stronger lane ganking. So now whats the differnce in jungle time, according to you its about 10 seconds. If I give up 10 seconds(early game), I have a higher success rate for ganking. Now don't think of this as the old jungle but in the jungle new jungle mindset.

edit: also I did think about using MS Quints instead of the Armor Pen but like I said I haven't had the time for it.

but phoedyr too good, i like quartering a persons health on the third hit :<

Tiamat Tiger Udyr.

Tiger stance and Wit's end do magic damage (I forget which Lizard buff does.)

I think you're better off with Magic Pen for damage on Udyr and pickup more tanky gear (Aegis, Randuins)

Lizard is true

I don't like wit's end on tiger though, I prefer atmas or BT

Doesn't mean you can't use items like Randuins Omen, Spirit Visage, BVeil, and Aegis, all of which give HP and mitigation to use your atmas with

i think lizard does true damage, if im not mistaken.