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Elementz 5v5 Tier List (Draft Mode)

 
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Scapegoatie ?? Senior Member
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07-18-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainzer View Post
Since much of the discussion linking was deleted from the OP, i'm actually curious on Ezreal's placement.

Given, his W is a great group support ability in that it heals his team, buffs his team, damages the other team, and debuffs the other team and his Ult is quite good burst for the mess of team fights.

The question, however, comes from the fact that it seems the most popular way to play him is AD style which sorta makes his W burst and Ult burst relatively weak. It also places him in an interesting position in a team fight being that it usually is a helluva mess but AD relies completely on a skill shot which is sorta impossible to focus fire in the fray.

So what am I missing?

For starters, his w does not heal anybody.

Second, his q does a lot of dmg, he can get away easy, and chase easy. Can overextend with him to get kills and still get away alive.

 
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Crs Elementz Crs Elementz's Avatar ?? The Council
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07-18-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodyunderwear View Post
For starters, his w does not heal anybody.

Second, his q does a lot of dmg, he can get away easy, and chase easy. Can overextend with him to get kills and still get away alive.
^ this.

 
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Dimensionist ?? Senior Member
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07-18-2010

Regarding the subject of Mal...

Everyone seems to forget Morgana when it comes to mages... Morgana can do everything that Mal can with more survivability, team utility, and team contribution.

There is little reason to ever pick mal over morgana.

Edit: Elementz great job on your tier list, very solid IMHO.

Regarding the subject of meta game regarding healers/poking/kiting isn't their a very solid counter to that now?

They stack healers and support like soraka/janna/taric etc. Wouldn't the hard counter be stacking insane burst/AOE?

Example: a team of Veigar/ammumu/morgana/ezrael/Ashe

Or something to that extent, you can't really heal insane amounts of burst if it takes 2 seconds to bring someone down from full hp to nothing.

What do you think of Veigar countering soraka/janna or even Kayle.

TLDR: They stack healing support you stack burst...

Edit Again: IMHO that's why healing and kiting comps seem over powered most teams just don't have very strong burst. Healing and kiting teams sacrifice some burst power.

If you have Annie and Veigar along with a solid tank maybe ammumu for AOE or Blitz for grab along with two phys DPS like Ashe and gangplank/trynd

The sheer burst of this team comp should be able to counter healing/kiting or am I missing something?

 
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Lord Sturm ?? Senior Member
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07-18-2010

Hey Elementz, I just wanted to drop in to say that I'm a big fan of your tier list. It's great that people of such high elo and high community standing like yourself are providing such a service for the LoL community, and I thank you for that.

Moving on to the list itself, it's great, and I like the work you've done with it and all, it's just sad for me to realize that every character I've ever had serious interest in is in tier 3 or lower. In particular, the two new champions that I've considered maining in the past two months, Malzahar and Kog'Maw, have fallen to the bottom of the list. In the case of Malzahar, this was ok because it made me realize how bad a champion he is in the current state of the game and move on, but in the case of Kog it only makes me want to ask why you think he's fallen so low. I know you already briefly touched up on him, but I'd like to bring up a few points about why I think Kog is a viable champion. Certainly not top tier, but definitely viable in this state of the game. (For clarification, after failing with the Phreak build, I've strictly built Kog as AP, and I feel that's the best build for him)

One thing Kog has above other casters when built AP is he scales a lot better as the game goes on. I think of Annie in particular when I say this. She is at her scariest mid game, where she has her full stunbear combo and decimates squishies and non-squishies alike. This is the stage of the game where Annie beats the snot out of everyone, and hopefully a fed Annie can end the game before the 30-minute mark. But I know that once the game gets to 40-45 minutes, Annie's damage potential against a well-built team drops considerably. I feel like I'm only good for my stun at this point in the game, and while they're stunned my carries/other dps mops up their team, which is an invaluable role, but the point is her damage potential is severely lacking after a certain point in the game, unless she is superfed. Many mages are like this.

Kog, when built AP at least, gets the best of both the mage and dps worlds: he gets very strong damage potential when he hits 6 (and at a considerable range), and his damage potential stays strong throughout the late game thanks to BAB. This is the reason I buy Nashor's with AP Kog, because the attack speed increases the dps potential of BAB by a boatload, all the while helping your Living Artillery and Void Ooze pack a solid punch.

I think one of the other things that keeps Kog from top-tier levels is his lack of an escape mechanism. This is a valid concern, seeing as Kog is as squishy as he is, but the reason he doesn't have an escape is because of his ridiculous range, therefore he shouldn't be in the front of teamfights in the first place. However, I find people tend to underestimate Kog's escapability. Void Ooze is one of the top three slows in the game in terms of sheer slowing %'s (I believe Singed's ooze and maybe Nasus' single-target slow are better), and when combined with a Rylai's, it's very possible to use Kog's slow to avoid nasty encounters with the entire enemy team. I've used Void Ooze to save my allies' skin multiple times when they're trying to elude enemies through the jungle, and it works wonders for this purpose.

While I do agree that he does have some glaring weaknesses (no escape mechanism, fairly item-dependant, Q is pretty useless in AP build/E and R are useless in a DPS build, many mana issues), I do find that Kog is far from "hard to place on a team." I use him regularly with my friends when we premade, and I've had some great success with him. Granted we're not high elo, and we haven't used that same setup since the stats restart, but I've carried our team with Kog'Maw more than once in the past, and I think he's a good choice as an AP carry.

Also, sorry for the wall of text. I just kind of typed whatever I was thinking, and let the thoughts flow. Sorry if it's too much.

tl;dr: Kog'Maw has mad deeps, brah. I think he's better than bottom tier.

 
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Pickles ?? Senior Member
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07-18-2010

Why is eve not the absolute worst champion anymore?

 
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Crs Elementz Crs Elementz's Avatar ?? The Council
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07-18-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Sturm View Post
Hey Elementz, I just wanted to drop in to say that I'm a big fan of your tier list. It's great that people of such high elo and high community standing like yourself are providing such a service for the LoL community, and I thank you for that.

Moving on to the list itself, it's great, and I like the work you've done with it and all, it's just sad for me to realize that every character I've ever had serious interest in is in tier 3 or lower. In particular, the two new champions that I've considered maining in the past two months, Malzahar and Kog'Maw, have fallen to the bottom of the list. In the case of Malzahar, this was ok because it made me realize how bad a champion he is in the current state of the game and move on, but in the case of Kog it only makes me want to ask why you think he's fallen so low. I know you already briefly touched up on him, but I'd like to bring up a few points about why I think Kog is a viable champion. Certainly not top tier, but definitely viable in this state of the game. (For clarification, after failing with the Phreak build, I've strictly built Kog as AP, and I feel that's the best build for him)

One thing Kog has above other casters when built AP is he scales a lot better as the game goes on. I think of Annie in particular when I say this. She is at her scariest mid game, where she has her full stunbear combo and decimates squishies and non-squishies alike. This is the stage of the game where Annie beats the snot out of everyone, and hopefully a fed Annie can end the game before the 30-minute mark. But I know that once the game gets to 40-45 minutes, Annie's damage potential against a well-built team drops considerably. I feel like I'm only good for my stun at this point in the game, and while they're stunned my carries/other dps mops up their team, which is an invaluable role, but the point is her damage potential is severely lacking after a certain point in the game, unless she is superfed. Many mages are like this.

Kog, when built AP at least, gets the best of both the mage and dps worlds: he gets very strong damage potential when he hits 6 (and at a considerable range), and his damage potential stays strong throughout the late game thanks to BAB. This is the reason I buy Nashor's with AP Kog, because the attack speed increases the dps potential of BAB by a boatload, all the while helping your Living Artillery and Void Ooze pack a solid punch.

I think one of the other things that keeps Kog from top-tier levels is his lack of an escape mechanism. This is a valid concern, seeing as Kog is as squishy as he is, but the reason he doesn't have an escape is because of his ridiculous range, therefore he shouldn't be in the front of teamfights in the first place. However, I find people tend to underestimate Kog's escapability. Void Ooze is one of the top three slows in the game in terms of sheer slowing %'s (I believe Singed's ooze and maybe Nasus' single-target slow are better), and when combined with a Rylai's, it's very possible to use Kog's slow to avoid nasty encounters with the entire enemy team. I've used Void Ooze to save my allies' skin multiple times when they're trying to elude enemies through the jungle, and it works wonders for this purpose.

While I do agree that he does have some glaring weaknesses (no escape mechanism, fairly item-dependant, Q is pretty useless in AP build/E and R are useless in a DPS build, many mana issues), I do find that Kog is far from "hard to place on a team." I use him regularly with my friends when we premade, and I've had some great success with him. Granted we're not high elo, and we haven't used that same setup since the stats restart, but I've carried our team with Kog'Maw more than once in the past, and I think he's a good choice as an AP carry.

Also, sorry for the wall of text. I just kind of typed whatever I was thinking, and let the thoughts flow. Sorry if it's too much.

tl;dr: Kog'Maw has mad deeps, brah. I think he's better than bottom tier.
Thanks for the support! <3

Reason Kog isn't up there anymore is because I realized there's no point in taking him over any caster or any physical dps. He requires too much farm and is just outshined by other physical carries and caster champions. I don't see people picking him over other champs is all.

 
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Crs Elementz Crs Elementz's Avatar ?? The Council
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07-18-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimensionist View Post
Regarding the subject of Mal...

Everyone seems to forget Morgana when it comes to mages... Morgana can do everything that Mal can with more survivability, team utility, and team contribution.

There is little reason to ever pick mal over morgana.

Edit: Elementz great job on your tier list, very solid IMHO.

Regarding the subject of meta game regarding healers/poking/kiting isn't their a very solid counter to that now?

They stack healers and support like soraka/janna/taric etc. Wouldn't the hard counter be stacking insane burst/AOE?

Example: a team of Veigar/ammumu/morgana/ezrael/Ashe

Or something to that extent, you can't really heal insane amounts of burst if it takes 2 seconds to bring someone down from full hp to nothing.

What do you think of Veigar countering soraka/janna or even Kayle.

TLDR: They stack healing support you stack burst...

Edit Again: IMHO that's why healing and kiting comps seem over powered most teams just don't have very strong burst. Healing and kiting teams sacrifice some burst power.

If you have Annie and Veigar along with a solid tank maybe ammumu for AOE or Blitz for grab along with two phys DPS like Ashe and gangplank/trynd

The sheer burst of this team comp should be able to counter healing/kiting or am I missing something?
So much editing to have a conversation with yourself and basically answer your own questions

Yeah you want to build a balanced team of CC, Burst, Tankyness, and sustained DPS pretty much.

 
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Zulunko ?? Senior Member
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07-18-2010

Elementz, what is the most viable build for TF in your opinion? AP TF seems more useful in teamfights (AoE Damage, etc) in my opinion, but AD TF and Magic Damage ASPD TF both dish out quite a bit of damage. Hybrid also... exists.

Note: Magic Damage ASPD TF is a Madred's Bloodrazors, Sword of the Divine, Stacked Deck, Rageblade, Tooth, etc build which could be slightly considered hybrid, but mainly focuses on on-hit effects along with his stacked deck proc.

 
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delandros ?? Recruiter
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07-18-2010

Why is Cho so low? Just curious.

 
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Lord Sturm ?? Senior Member
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07-18-2010

Thanks for the response!! I'll try to keep this post shorter than the last one. >.<

If you'd let me pick your brain just a bit, I wonder, what changes do you think would get Kog out of the bottom of the barrel, in your opinion? I think his main issue is he needs to get off the "hybrid" fence and be either discernibly an AD/DPS or an AP champ, and that would help all his other problems considerably, but what do you think he needs in order to distinguish himself from the likes of Malzahar, Teemo and Evelynn?

Until then, I'll continue to play Kog'Maw and hopefully people will start to see him the way I do, and perhaps the metagame will see him in a new light eventually. It happened with Ez and Janna and Heimer, so it can happen with Kog too!

Thanks again for the response!