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@Morello, Definition of a Carry

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Sebbl ?? Senior Member
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02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FossaFerox View Post
Sion as a whole is kind of a weird champ. He's half AD and half AP but not in a way that lends well towards playing him as a real hybrid.

The simplest answer I can give you is that he doesn't scale hard enough to be an AD carry since he's melee and has no steroid which enhances his auto attack. For example:

Fiora has her AS buff, Trynd has crit scaling and bonus AD from missing health, Yi has his bonus AD and his free attacks from his passive.

All of these skills mean that when they're meleeing you late game they're actually blowing you up.

Sion doesn't have anything like this, and as a result he isn't scary because of his damage. He's scary because of his tankiness, his life steal, his stun, and his shield. His damage is pretty much in line with other fighters.
Sion has no steroids? E gives 65 AD, R gives 50% AS + the lifesteal. Besides all the free HP he gains from farming.

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KruxisV ?? Senior Member
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02-29-2012

"Sion has no steroid."

Now, I've seen it all, folks.

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ViashinoWizard ?? Senior Member
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02-29-2012

Bump for nerfbird

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Xypherous Xypherous's Avatar ?? Technical Designer
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02-29-2012

Fundamentally - yeah, we completely agree with you. There are AP carries (Cassie) or Melee Carries (Yi) or Ranged Carries, etc. Typically, we try to ensure that glass cannon builds can perform better in the carry role than other builds just from a healthy game balance vs. counterability standpoint - I mean, why build glass if you can build tanky and carry just as hard right? So we typically try to make sure that the glass build has appropriately high returns on characters meant to carry.

This is why it's okay if like glass cannon Garen doesn't carry the game - he's not really intended to perform in a carry role as an highly defensive invader/executioner - but it would *not* be okay if glass cannon Yi couldn't carry the game - that's Yi's intended role. Usually it doesn't take much.

Our language can be a little off or casual when we're talking with you guys at 3 a.m. though - It's pretty hard to be straight-laced and keep consistent terms when you're posting from the doorstop of unconsciousness. XD

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Elegance SG ?? Senior Member
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02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViashinoWizard View Post
I don't understand your logic here. In the moba genre, a "carry" refers to a character with strong scaling that carries the game. You're defining a carry, specifically a melee carry, as a character that builds glass cannon, but that isn't a required trait to carry a team late game. The most obvious example is Nasus, who builds almost full tank but will most definitely carry late game with appropriate farm. There's also Sion, who you specifically say ISN'T a carry, whose tankiness and DPS let him carry harder than almost any other champion.

If you look at, say, Dota, you'll see that glass cannon melee carries are practically non-existent. Every melee range carry in Dota builds what we would call "tanky DPS" with few exceptions (Rikimaru can sort-of get away with it because of his Permanent Invisibility). And that's in a game where carries get bonus armor or HP for building damage.

I understand you're using it to define a specific role, but "carry" already IS a role that encompasses more than what you're using it to define.

tl;dr - Building glass cannon doesn't make you a carry, even (or especially) if you're melee. Having big lategame DPS makes you a carry.
he did say melee ad carry though, also I honestly can't quite think of any hero that builds tanky dps... agi does not count, thats just a broken stat system.
also if you build vanguard on antimage as a "tanky dps"
thats known as a gank antimage, not carry.
carry is where he goes fury and farms up a storm in the jungle, then 1v5s.

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Oracle Elixir ?? Member
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02-29-2012

Ok
Nerf fiora now

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Soviet Mudkip ?? Senior Member
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02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Fundamentally - yeah, we completely agree with you. There are AP carries (Cassie) or Melee Carries (Yi) or Ranged Carries, etc. Typically, we try to ensure that glass cannon builds can perform better in the carry role than other builds just from a healthy game balance vs. counterability standpoint - I mean, why build glass if you can build tanky and carry just as hard right? So we typically try to make sure that the glass build has appropriately high returns on characters meant to carry.

This is why it's okay if like glass cannon Garen doesn't carry the game - he's not really intended to perform in a carry role as an highly defensive invader/executioner - but it would *not* be okay if glass cannon Yi couldn't carry the game - that's Yi's intended role. Usually it doesn't take much.

Our language can be a little off or casual when we're talking with you guys at 3 a.m. though - It's pretty hard to be straight-laced and keep consistent terms when you're posting from the doorstop of unconsciousness. XD
Exactly what this red said. Certain characters have certain roles. They aren't saying characters who arent AD, AP, melee, ranged or w/e combo can't carry, they are just saying glass cannons get a higher return and reward from it since they are meant for it. And since you guys are using Nasus and Sion ill play along. Can a Nasus carry harder then an Akali? Can a Sion carry harder then an Ashe? I doubt it. Unless the Sion is clearly being fed or the Nasus as well, but if an Akali and Nasus butted heads both being fairly comparatively farmed and moderately doing well, the Akali will win. Why? Because she is meant to be a glass cannon while Nasus isn't built for damage.

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Foodhi ?? Senior Member
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02-29-2012

I always understood the term "carry" to mean someone who's main role on the team is to do tons of damage. Everyone else is a tank, support, or anti-carry.

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NakedGranny ?? Senior Member
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02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Fundamentally - yeah, we completely agree with you. There are AP carries (Cassie) or Melee Carries (Yi) or Ranged Carries, etc. Typically, we try to ensure that glass cannon builds can perform better in the carry role than other builds just from a healthy game balance vs. counterability standpoint - I mean, why build glass if you can build tanky and carry just as hard right? So we typically try to make sure that the glass build has appropriately high returns on characters meant to carry.

This is why it's okay if like glass cannon Garen doesn't carry the game - he's not really intended to perform in a carry role as an highly defensive invader/executioner - but it would *not* be okay if glass cannon Yi couldn't carry the game - that's Yi's intended role. Usually it doesn't take much.

Our language can be a little off or casual when we're talking with you guys at 3 a.m. though - It's pretty hard to be straight-laced and keep consistent terms when you're posting from the doorstop of unconsciousness. XD
... so then, why do tanky fighters do all the carrying these days? they've been the carries since ... two years. or more.

and why do mages all suck so hard after the first Negatron?

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The Crow ?? Senior Member
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02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViashinoWizard View Post
I don't understand your logic here. In the moba genre, a "carry" refers to a character with strong scaling that carries the game. You're defining a carry, specifically a melee carry, as a character that builds glass cannon, but that isn't a required trait to carry a team late game. The most obvious example is Nasus, who builds almost full tank but will most definitely carry late game with appropriate farm. There's also Sion, who you specifically say ISN'T a carry, whose tankiness and DPS let him carry harder than almost any other champion.

If you look at, say, Dota, you'll see that glass cannon melee carries are practically non-existent. Every melee range carry in Dota builds what we would call "tanky DPS" with few exceptions (Rikimaru can sort-of get away with it because of his Permanent Invisibility). And that's in a game where carries get bonus armor or HP for building damage.

I understand you're using it to define a specific role, but "carry" already IS a role that encompasses more than what you're using it to define.

tl;dr - Building glass cannon doesn't make you a carry, even (or especially) if you're melee. Having big lategame DPS makes you a carry.
Phantom Assassin....hyper carry with BKB(only tanky item). You don't even need BKB all the time if you slice people in half with 4x crits.

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