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So can we all agree now that Sona is incredibly weak?

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Disgruntler ?? Senior Member
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06-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just me Soraka View Post
You take that back. Right. Now.

You need to actually play these champs before you make any baseless conclusions like this.
Do you have any idea how hard to it is to watch not only your lane, the warded river/bushes/jungle, all the other lanes, at the same time?

They call you Nerf Master Suck Town for a reason.
Nothing you just mentioned has anything to do with Soraka and Janna specifically. None of their abilities are 'watch the lane', 'ward bushes' etc.

Nor are those non-champion based responsibilities unique to Soraka or Janna. Other supports do those exact things as well, to the exact same degree and exact same responsibility.

So.... less nonsense please.

 
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Fayori ?? Senior Member
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06-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gespens View Post
strawman argument, but I'll play along.

Taric has a built in mana sustain and his heal is stronger than Sona's for roughly the same mana cost and down time thanks to its 'attack for lower CD' mechanic.

Soraka's heal provides a powerful armor buff and she gives a person mana. In addition, she has a harass spell for 0 cost, which if used on an ally, can make them immovable from lane.
Oh you're funny!

 
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MachedaWindMaker ?? Senior Member
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06-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gespens View Post
She late game falls... what am I reading?
mid/late game u have 3 options:
-go ap and try to make a lil difference
-go normal support with mreg and base ur game in a good ult, "healing" and bosting speed.
-a lil or both and meh on everything, but more balance.

 
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Yasako ?? Senior Member
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06-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MachedaWindMaker View Post
mid/late game u have 3 options:
-go ap and try to make a lil difference
-go normal support with mreg and base ur game in a good ult, "healing" and bosting speed.
-a lil or both and meh on everything, but more balance.
Or go AD/support and rape face.

 
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Gespens ?? Senior Member
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06-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayori View Post
Oh you're funny!
(Innate) Taric's autoattacks replenish his mana for 7.5% of the damage dealt.

This is roughly 5 mana per auto attack at level 2. Combine this with his base mana regen and the mana regen mastery, he has about 20+ mana regen per 5, by attacking once. If you match your auto attacks with the enemy AD carry missing a last hit, you regen even more.

Quote:
mid/late game u have 3 options:
-go ap and try to make a lil difference
-go normal support with mreg and base ur game in a good ult, "healing" and bosting speed.
-a lil or both and meh on everything, but more balance.
Her auras provide a lot of bonuses in late game where she has decent CDR.

Q gives a net gain of 20 AP and AD. To your AP, that is 28 additional AP thanks to death cap.

W is effectively Aegis' defense buff, but slightly weaker when maxed.

E is better than Janna's passive and active equates to almost a reverie active.

 
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Kanzawa ?? Senior Member
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06-10-2012

sona is just free kills, and an ad carry lane gimp. poke carry once, sona oom and useless the rest of the laning phase.

i love when people pick her, especially in solo queue where theres not enough coordination to utilize her ult, you can pretty much ignore her 100%, get stunned for a sec, then continue to 5v4 them.

sona is trash, worse than eve, worse than xin zhao.

you could pick almost anyone, build aegis/reverie, buy wards AND be waay more useful than a good sona.

 
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SenorBobbers ?? Senior Member
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06-10-2012

Quote:
You take that back. Right. Now.

You need to actually play these champs before you make any baseless conclusions like this.
Do you have any idea how hard to it is to watch not only your lane, the warded river/bushes/jungle, all the other lanes, at the same time?

They call you Nerf Master Suck Town for a reason.
Wow, youre an idiot. If you can't do all that by simply looking at a square on the screen you must have ADD. Also, like typical internet *** fashion, you misuse and fail to understand a community creation. "Nerf master suck town" was originally from a comic poking fun at Morello because he's lead champion designer, not because hes "OMG INFAMOUS FOR NARFINGZ". How about you learn some common sense before opening that mouth to throw pointless insults around?

 
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sinbad69 ?? Senior Member
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06-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaRegellus View Post
So they should leave openly broken champions in tournaments that give MONEY, just so low elo players can have their fun?

Does that really sound right?
they can simply up the ban numbers

 
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sinbad69 ?? Senior Member
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06-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBobbers View Post
Wow, youre an idiot. If you can't do all that by simply looking at a square on the screen you must have ADD. Also, like typical internet *** fashion, you misuse and fail to understand a community creation. "Nerf master suck town" was originally from a comic poking fun at Morello because he's lead champion designer, not because hes "OMG INFAMOUS FOR NARFINGZ". How about you learn some common sense before opening that mouth to throw pointless insults around?
in my 18 months here morello is sort of known for the mass nerfing of things to the comunity i learned that my first 2 months here lol

also phreak is known as the guy who screams "tons of damage" and loves trinity force on everything, plays alot of champs as junglers, oh and makes really really sucks for how to play champion ( mostly based on his gp spotlight )

 
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Morello Morello's Avatar ?? Lead Content Designer
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5 of 11 Riot Posts
06-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
Why the huge resistance to changing the way characters work? I get the "we came up with X concept and we wanna make that work if we can", but to be quite blunt, some designs suck.

Soraka is never going to be a fun character to play against in her current state unless she's nerfed into Eve tier. If Sona has a spot where she's not used as a CC bot and her spells stay as currently designed, then it's going to involve massive nerfs to her ult and corresponding tweaks/buffs to her non-ult skills. Things like that. And don't get me started on some of the absolutely hideous bruiser designs (primarily because this is a support thread :P)
This is a good question, and one we struggle with a lot. Several characters (especially older ones) have design patterns like this that could be solved by fundamentally reworking the character. The cost of this is how much a lot of people don't like change and have gotten used to certain things (jungle, Ryze rework, Fiddle changes, and many more are good examples).

In support's case specifically, this is a bigger issue because Soraka and Sona are built on shaky design foundations to begin with. On the flip side, both have a pretty loyal fanbase who enjoy those playstyles and get really angry about changes to them - even if the game or character would get better as a result. Top this off with the sensitivity that we hate support (which if we did, I think you wouldn't see them in the meta, and the two being as popular as they are..), and you see the contentiousness of this issue.

I don't have a clear answer because I'd do this 100% if we were releasing the game tomorrow. Since this is a live game though, there's a lot of things to factor in - especially when it comes to player expectations. I agree with your analysis that Soraka (and likely Sona) will always be either flattened out, lackluster or must-picks with their current core designs - do we change those and let their power shine more? Do we nerf core mechanics to be balanced and remove fun from the players who do like them? We have done this before, and I think our ability to do so today is much better, but it's always risky and a tough decision. Personally, I'd rather just make Q something like 60 second CD and a massive heal so it was a heroic save and not a HoT equivalent, but that's me :P

These kinds of things obviously take time, and Stealth, Karma and Katarina are on deck right now. I'm not opposed to this, but as you can see from the second post with downvotes, support players have a real attachment to these characters' design, even if that design is unhealthy.