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@Riot, Your balance cycles are creating a stagnant game.

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Ragain ?? Senior Member
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07-18-2012

It is NOT the balance designs creating stagnation. Its the bland item choices at all stages of the games, and the simplicity of the champions as well.

 
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MichaelMacabre ?? Senior Member
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07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragain View Post
It is NOT the balance designs creating stagnation. Its the bland item choices at all stages of the games, and the simplicity of the champions as well.
/thread

 
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Krimson62 ?? Senior Member
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07-18-2012

The problem is they base round play rates and win rates.

Taric is becoming the next janna, as she keeps getting nerfed. Next we'll have taric nerfs because he is seeing too much play.

Support is the hardest role to "carry" from. basing nerfs on their win rates is preposterous because there are so few to choose from.

People like to play support casters, how many support casters do we have?

Soraka
Janna
Lulu
Sona
Zilean

How many of those are overnerfed?
Lulu
Sona
Zilean
and now janna

So what's becoming more popular?
Taric
Alistar

The days of caster supports are dying because riot uses the nerf bat too hard, and too often.

The point is riot doesn't give enough time, nor encourage players to adapt.


I say official policy should be to let solo queue play whatever champion they want, in whatever lane they want. No reporting for trolling, or not following the meta. only player ingenuity. Let someones ELO figure it out.

I say this could all be mitigated by forcing the premades to be the one who have to follow the meta.
Not forcing someone to support when they don't want to. Why? Because then they will use one of the 2 cheapest supports. Soraka or Janna. and you know what? they'll probably beat the team that doesn't use a proper support, creating high win rates.

Nerfing in general needs to stop. The OP is right. too many nerfs are FORCING choices upon players, not letting them adapt on their own.

 
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PsiNorm ?? Junior Member
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07-18-2012

I think there are two things contributing to the staleness of the current game.

First, just because changes in a computer game can be made quickly doesn't mean that they should be. I think a model sort of like the one ccg's (collectable card games) use would be better. The cards in a set, once printed, are hard to change. Bans and such are sometimes handed out, but only in the most drastic situations. Luckly, in lol, teams are given 3 bans to issue each match so the urgency to nerf is lessened. Changes should be made less frequently, and on a set schedule - perhaps once at the start of a season, and one in the middle to shake things up and correct balance issues. Currently, things change so fast that the players don't have time to adapt. When a champ becomes popular because of how it works against the current meta, Riot runs in quickly saying, "Don't worry guys, you don't need to come up with a strategy to counter this, or even use one of the bans you're given. We got this." Like in ccg's, the idea should be, "This is the current environment, adapt. If there is an immediate need, we'll deal with it, but other than that, use the tools we've given you to deal with it."

Which leads into the other issue I see - the tools. We're limited to six slots, so offer lots of item choices that fit different situations. Right now builds are pretty cookie cutter, but what if there were more choices? AD plus armor, AD with MR, AD with AS and health, and all kinds of other combinations? Let there be be a meta game within the game around which team geared up the best to go against the current opponents team. I think this idea would also benefit from more items with activated abilities, but we could start slow and just add more build options.

Conclusion: the state of the game should be more stable to allow players the time to come up with counters, but those players should have access to the tools necessary to make those counters possible.

 
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Lazreal ?? Senior Member
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07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddric View Post
But isn't that exactly what a meta does? If champion A starts seeing a lot of play, it's up to the community to discover that champion B counters champion A. This is what allows the game to constantly evolve and develop. If you nerf champion A before people have found champion B, then the meta won't shift at all. People stick to playing everything that champion A countered, because now he's been nerfed and doesn't counter them anymore.
Okay but in certain instances theres not much you can do, even if you pick a supposed "counter" for example Lee Sin seems to win 1v1 anyone, maybe its cuz he is bruce lee in disguise, and not much you can do when Nocturn ults onto your face. and everyone seems to forget about the mages.

I hope for season 3 they do actual season style stuff, by Limiting the Champion pool, to like only the last 40 champions or something like that, or do a semi retire of certain champions that have seen to much play, in order to diversify the game from a spectator sport stand point and a players stand point.

 
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Spirit of Fate ?? Senior Member
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07-18-2012

Malphite doesn't counter the meta. He's the definition of meta: Bruiser sent top or jungle due to gank or sustain potential. Role on team is generally to engage and focus the ad carry. Not all that different than say renek, jarvan, nasus, riven, olaf, talon, noc, ww, garen, morde, etc. He just happens to be able to get to the carry far more effectively than many of the others mentioned. He gives up a little on the way though (not strongest in terms of damage, lacks hard cc except ult, doesn't get morde's sexy ghost, etc).

 
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The Toad ?? Senior Member
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07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipse Apostle View Post
Obviously, there are kits that innately counter other kits, which occurs naturally and should be considered, but ideally, the live team should never have to take the meta into consideration for Champion balance.
There's a huge problem with this though as what if a champion is strong but unpopular? Take a look at Trundle who can be very strong in the right situations, but because the meta has changed he is considered a weak pick in many circumstances.

Riot has to take the meta into account because what is strong today could be very weak in a few months. Does that mean we should just let said strategy be strong today and then let it die out in a few months? No, because it creates a situation where players hate fighting it at one point and hate using it at another.

 
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Fflarn ?? Senior Member
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07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddric View Post
This game has pretty much been the exact same for 6 months. The meta hasn't evolved at all. I firmly believe that it's because you don't seem to support any kind of real counterplay or innovation. When a champion has the innate ability to counter the meta, you nerf that champion instead of allowing the game to develop around it.

For example, look at the Janna and Malphite nerfs. About 6 months to a year ago, during the sustain era, everyone would have told you Janna is the weakest support. But you gutted sustain, and thus the meta had to shift. Janna became one of the most powerful picks without receiving a single buff, all because the game evolved to a place where she could succeed. Suddenly that means she's too strong and needs nerfs? The exact same thing is happening to Malphite. Months ago, most people wouldn't even know who Malphite was... However, he became wildly popular recently because of his ability to counter the current meta. He gets to dive straight past the wall of meat shields, and shut down the AD carry. But instead of waiting for people to realize you can counter him with poke and disengage comps, you're nerfing him.
Um, Janna is still a support bot and malphite is still a tanky top. This is not changing the meta, it's picking champs that are strong in the meta.

AoE, heal, CC, poke, etc are strategies used in the meta. For instance, that team comp dignitas used with the unkillable carry could never be a meta, because in order for it to work you had to have Soraka and Lulu.

A changed meta would be like, as you mentioned, having a single champ in top mid and bot with a roamer, or forgoing a jungler to run heavy push kill lanes.

Unfortunately the meta is the meta because no other setup has been shown to be as consistently advantageous as the single top, single mid, jungle, 0 CS support, and ranged ad carry setup that is used.

 
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Xypherous Xypherous's Avatar ?? Technical Designer
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6 of 7 Riot Posts
07-18-2012

Quote:

Which leads into the other issue I see - the tools. We're limited to six slots, so offer lots of item choices that fit different situations. Right now builds are pretty cookie cutter, but what if there were more choices? AD plus armor, AD with MR, AD with AS and health, and all kinds of other combinations? Let there be be a meta game within the game around which team geared up the best to go against the current opponents team. I think this idea would also benefit from more items with activated abilities, but we could start slow and just add more build options.
Working on it... This is basically my major focus at the moment. Players don't have enough choices in game to be expressive in-game and pre-game to actually make strong decisions. The most influential choice a player has right now is champion selection - because everything else is a tad stifling at the moment.

As a side note, this is actually what I believe needs to be done first before we talk about player adaptation to environment - because there's just not enough a player can do in game through itemization to adapt to what he sees on the opposing side.

 
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Krimson62 ?? Senior Member
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07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by vynzs View Post
Malphite can reduce and AD carry damage outpout by 70% over 5.5 seconds with low possibilities of counterplay. (Only one being cleanse/QSS the AS debuff)
He has one of the best initiation, which also makes great ganks.
He has enough damage to kill an AP/AD carry with low resistances in a long teamfight if ahead. This damage also often force the ennemies to focus him.
He has great farming tools.


You wanted facts ? There, you have them. Give me another tanks
Leona can long range AoE stun your carry which can also be a great ganking tool and initiation
Leona has enough damage to kill low resist carries as well given the time (which she can create with snares and stuns
Leona has the biggest defensive steroid in the game
Leona can blink to your carry and stunlock them for over 4 seconds and at max CDR can stun once every 4 seconds making your carry useless.

I'd say a useless stunned carry is worse than one with lowered AD for a few seconds.

Do you think leona should be nerfed? She does just as much as malphite,

(the only right answer is no) there shouldn't be any nerfs