Originally Posted by Thayen
Nice job, Hours of work written for the benefit of a community that probably wasn't nearly as respectful as they should have been. Seriously great work.
Well, maybe I guess, but thanks. People rarely are grateful for things given to them, especially when it comes to the LoL community. I'm surprised, mostly, that I've only had one person actively complain and insult me for trying to help.
Originally Posted by ploki122
I beg to differ... actually I would say it is hours invested in sharing his knowledge to the 5% of the subforum who will care about reading his walls of text* because they actually do champions not to see them in-game but to see them be "better" (not stronger, just more complete) than those in-game. Also, corect me if I'm wrong, but afaik, that 5% is all very respectful and thankful to Katsuni to share his/her experience (haven't read the "About" part yet ><... but if I REALLY had to guess i'd go with her because of the nid/teemo preference... then again i'm a boy and nid is in my top 3 while teemo is in, or near, top 5).
*Please note that I already said it was a wall of text when it was 5-10 posts long and fitted on 1 page... I'm reading through it all again and it seems to be the exact same information but said WAY more clearly an with further explanations for those that are having troubles. So it's basically now a mofo wall of text...
I would argue that the designs we can achieve here are probably not more complete than those in game, but it will provide more consistently good quality, if nothing else.
The lore on a lot of the most recent champions, for example, leaves something to be desired... mouthwash, specifically, when it comes to Jayce.
Still, there's so much more that goes on behind the scenes in creation that isn't visible to us. After all, many people on the forum here, honestly still believe that Riot actually makes champions in 2 weeks, from the time they announce them, to the time they're released.
Regardless, on the matter of champion preferences, that's a personal topic which tends to rely on the individual, and some things just don't really count fully; I think we can all agree mundo is awesome and that a Gentleman Cho'gath plush toy to squeeze would be <3 no matter how "manly" yeu think yeurself to be XD
As for the "wall of text" syndrome, in a way, yes, yes it is just as yeu said. The original "small" version was put up on the front page by several requests (including one from RiotAmes) for a "small" version that could be browsed over quickly and give the reader at least a quick, brief overview if they just needed the basics.
The full length articles are more or less much of the same, but often go into far more detail, much of which isn't actually covered in the original short versions. Some of it's just expanded concepts, some of it's new stuff, it depends on the topic as some are easier to say the core points in short detail than others =3
Originally Posted by Thayen
Hmm I suppose so, I've just become so disenchanted with the community in general that I sorta lashed out a bit there, I apologize.
Yeah... a lot of people are growing frustrated with it. I know our "council" for reviewing champions pretty much died when over half of them just gave up on the community entirely.
I will confess that there is a certain truth to the idea that it's not worth the effort. In other ways... there are a handful still here that do deserve the effort, and while it may be likely less than a dozen total, it feels wrong to me to just abandon them because they're stuck sharing space with others who don't care.
It's sad to see people like Echoing, ElementSteel, Villanova, and a lot of the other people who I used to enjoy reading the posts of just... poof. It's disappointing, in a way, but I don't fault them for giving up, either. It's a harsh crowd, and most don't give much hope for redemption; the majority are self-interested with no care for anyone else, they won't lift a finger to help someone else unless they're paid upfront (I'll only review if yeu review me first! kind of mentality -_-; ), and for the most part, it's painful to realize just how little interest the community has in the better ideas on here.
As I was telling someone else earlier in this thread... good ideas get ignored. People don't say "nice work" or "good job" on something that's done well normally. If they do comment, it's very brief and more or less useless. The only time people tend to swarm to an idea, isn't because it's good, but generally because it has pictures or a red post to draw them in, and then they stick around mostly to complain about how bad the actual idea is, and it mostly just goes back and forth between those who blindly say it's awesome, no matter how bad it is, simply because it has pictures or icons, and those who point out how terrible the idea really is without those.
That's... how you get attention around here, as quality work doesn't earn you praise.
Despite that, there are those who want to better themselves anyway, and learn to be more than they are, without simply catering to the "ooh pretty pictures" crowd. There are some on here that legitimately want to consider really getting into the business, and though the chances are that my time's up, and my career over before it got to really begin due to circumstances outside my control, I'd like to at least kindle that spark of creativity in them and give those who deserve it a fighting chance and a goal to dream higher than they thought otherwise possible.
Maybe I'll get lucky within the next month, and be able to use the few contacts I have at Riot to get me work, or maybe I'll actually be able to get enough leverage at home to set up rules so that I'll be physically able to work from home on indie developments to get the experience I need to go elsewhere.
Most likely, I probably won't, but it won't stop me from trying. Most likely, those who try to reach for their dreams will falter and fail, or be pushed back by a tide of those who would rather hold them back than see them succeed, but once again, sure, there's a 99% probability that yeu'll miss all the shots yeu take, but it's 100% if yeu don't take any. And really, yeu never know. Sometimes yeu actually nail that 1%, and it turns out alright.
Originally Posted by ploki122
np, as you can see i'm at least as disabused by the community than you... You came out and said to Katsuni that you appreciated her thread and that she wasn't really wasting her time since some people actually enjoyed reading it and are telling her...
On my part, I actually told her that some peoples actually READ it... I've been on this forum (on and off) for nearly a year and there are things that never change... There will still be peoples that come to this subforum only to create a champion based on their favorite champion (and most of the time the champion can be guesssed by looking at the one they present us). I tried a few times to interact with that majority but still had no feedback from them (and obviously I got feedback from the best designers imo...).
Sill, I'm not giving up, only changing my approach. I,m trying to befriend 3-4 reds (and at least 2 of them as game designers) to understand better how Riot works and how we could actually use the concept forum to influence (read as help) them, similarily to how the way PBE works, but for concept creation. So basically, instead of trying to raise the average level of concepts (what Katsuni is doing), I'm trying to help the good concepts shine. However this is still a WIP, more details will come once I manage to plot it out...
Soon : Occupy CC
Well, good luck in that. I know I've spoken with RiotAmes a few times on the matter, and while Riot's pretty adamant about not using the information we have on the forum here, they are interested in giving us more tools to work with, such as a bit more information from the design team. There's a remarkable amount of red tape to cut through, however, and some strong opposition about providing anything to us, due to a variety of reasons, such as legal issues, time constraints, and competitors gaining knowledge that would otherwise be bad to have.
Technically, I shouldn't even have written the guide, as it's the kind of information that DotA2 could use to actually make itself into a worthwhile series. The designs they have are old, lacking, and for the most part just carbon copies of ideas that simply weren't designed at the level of some of the stuff on the forum here.
In a way, it's not that big a deal though; half the people who work on other MOBA games have probably worked on LoL before anyway. Such is the nature of the games industry; positions are highly temporary, with most contracts lasting 3 to 6 months, and anything you teach one individual has a remarkably high chance that it simply will get shipped off to another company within a year.
Consider things like Pixar... they've trained half the animation industry at this point due to their excessively high burnout rate due to their insane work ethic. Sure it's nice quality and all in the end, but it's fairly rare for an animator to last from one movie to the next without quitting on their own from the ridiculous stress levels of working there.
That knowledge then gets passed around, and their competitors overall grow in competency due to such as they gain more workers with that knowledge.
If you grow too large, you're almost guaranteeing such will happen, which is problematic on a company finances level, but then again, it's good for the industry overall, as well as for games as a whole.
After all, it's not like Riot employees have some magical hatred or ban against other MOBAs... take a look at Blizzard employees; they loved torchlight =3 I'm sure there's Riot employees who love DotA2 and Smite, Demigod and HoN just as much as their own game of LoL.
In any case, I kinda got off to ranting.
I guess I'd rather see all champions be more interesting, than just a few be made better, but it's also universally unrealistic to expect such, as well. Still, if both angles are worked at, it wouldn't hurt, likely.
Also... I don't understand the "occupy CC" if we are the 1% ^.~