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Karma Remake Suggestions

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oddish33 ?? Senior Member
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08-09-2012

Some cc would be nice because that what I feel she is lacking in right now along with her W.

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thepantsparty ?? Senior Member
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08-09-2012

What makes a 0 cs support work is that their base kit provides a lot of utility (usually through cc, sometimes through buffs) so that they still provide value to their team even without farm. Her abilities scale well with AP, but when you're not getting farm and therefore don't have much AP they don't provide any secondary utility.

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Hazanshu ?? Senior Member
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08-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ionian StarChild View Post
That's due to the lack of an ultimate and that her mantras doesn't really feel like it was worth it to sacrifice an actual ult for.
Well i posted my suggestion earlier I revised it so it promotes better skills and gives her stats essentially when she chooses not to use them.

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TigStripe ?? Senior Member
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08-09-2012

Karma interest thread. This thread is relevant to my interests.

I think the list that Ames has going about the problems is spot-on. I did a rework thread on Karma myself, which was MAINLY number tweaks, but also some additional gameplay mechanics.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2323708

Without checking the thread out, here are the gameplay changes:
- Make her shield grant Tenacity, as it's the only targeted shield in the game that doesn't give special statistics/resistances.
- Damage enemies targeted by tether, and grant Mantra bonus to cause a silence to all enemies for .5 seconds when they touch the tether itself. Targeted enemy is also silenced.
- Make her Q's heal have more impact, because you're essentially using your ultimate to make it a heal.
- Mantra granted on kill/assist, and not giving her a third Mantra charge - keeps her 1v1 stable as it is now, but allows her more activity in teamfight situations.

If this list sounds interesting, take a look at the thread. There was a nice discussion in there.

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TomajRT ?? Senior Member
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08-09-2012

One thing I'd like to note, by the way (after reading through several pages of this thread after posting my own reply), Karma is far from squishy. In fact, she's one of the hardest champions to kill in the game, after you take into consideration her E and Q (plus baiting Darius/Garen ults is delicious). Yes, she's got short range, but she also has natural tankiness (in terms of sheer HP) that other supports like Janna, Lulu and Soraka don't have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
3b) If making an AP, have enough spells that combine in a clear or meaningful way to keep the gameplay interesting.
To be fair, their are champions like Sion and Twisted Fate who effectively have two abilities, too. The bigger problem with Karma is that her damage relies on using Mantra (for Soul Shield, which means one less Mantra for a heal from Heavenly Wave), or a completely unintuitive, moving, tethered, line skill shot (Spirit Bond).

I'd also like to say that her Q not healing as much as Soraka's or Taric's is fine, given that, like Alistar's heal, it can heal minions (and/or multiple champions) and has the potential to keep a lane pushed or freeze a lane. But even then, it just doesn't heal enough to mean anything in the long run (one extra turret hit on a minion, if you're lucky). Besides, the conal aspect of it makes it impossible to heal all of your allies if you and your allies are not in perfect positioning - warranting a possible buff to the heal itself. I'd be hesistant to touch the AP ratio on the heal, as it would possibly make AP Karma even more underwhelming to nerf it, but it would make it feel like you have to go AP Karma if you buff it.

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NamKim ?? Senior Member
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08-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
So, what's the next step here? I think that we can take the list of items that you've identified as weak points in her kit or thematic and generalize them a bit so that we can apply them to your own creations. Here's the previous list, with an item added:

Common themes:
1) Using Mantra charges does not feel impactful
2) Karma needs too many stats to be effective with her current kit
3) The duality aspect of her spells does not feel significant enough
4) Spirit bond is not satisfying or has too high of a burden of knowledge on your lane mate
5) Her lack of hard CC compared to other supports makes her feel weak as a 0 CS support, which feeds into 2).
6) The progression of her spells doesn't feel significant.

And, my first pass at an updated, general list:

1) Abilities should feel impactful. This does not necessarily mean damage.
2) Be mindful of the amount of stats your concept needs, compared to the amount of income they are able to put towards those stats.
3a) If making a support, some form of hard or soft CC should be part of the kit in a way that allows you to use it responsively.
3b) If making an AP, have enough spells that combine in a clear or meaningful way to keep the gameplay interesting.
4) When you are trying to establish a theme with your champion, make sure that theme carries into gameplay clearly.
5) Try to avoid placing a high burden of knowledge on your team. Use clear visual cues to communicate the language of your skills.

Does that seem about right? Using the key points that have been identified in this thread, how can you improve your own concept/s?
I think you pretty much got why Karma is not more popular. I mean, there are some more stuff but that is really in the details and they probably fall under one of the main points you posted up.

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Rysan Marquise ?? Senior Member
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08-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomajRT View Post
One thing I'd like to note, by the way (after reading through several pages of this thread after posting my own reply), Karma is far from squishy. In fact, she's one of the hardest champions to kill in the game, after you take into consideration her E and Q (plus baiting Darius/Garen ults is delicious). Yes, she's got short range, but she also has natural tankiness (in terms of sheer HP) that other supports like Janna, Lulu and Soraka don't have.



To be fair, their are champions like Sion and Twisted Fate who effectively have two abilities, too. The bigger problem with Karma is that her damage relies on using Mantra (for Soul Shield, which means one less Mantra for a heal from Heavenly Wave), or a completely unintuitive, moving, tethered, line skill shot (Spirit Bond).

I'd also like to say that her Q not healing as much as Soraka's or Taric's is fine, given that, like Alistar's heal, it can heal minions (and/or multiple champions) and has the potential to keep a lane pushed or freeze a lane. But even then, it just doesn't heal enough to mean anything in the long run (one extra turret hit on a minion, if you're lucky). Besides, the conal aspect of it makes it impossible to heal all of your allies if you and your allies are not in perfect positioning - warranting a possible buff to the heal itself. I'd be hesistant to touch the AP ratio on the heal, as it would possibly make AP Karma even more underwhelming to nerf it, but it would make it feel like you have to go AP Karma if you buff it.
QoL on only the healing aspect of the Q, by making it also cover a small radius around Karma might be nice. No Ratio changes, just a bit more leeway.

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Lessis ?? Senior Member
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08-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
So, what's the next step here? I think that we can take the list of items that you've identified as weak points in her kit or thematic and generalize them a bit so that we can apply them to your own creations. Here's the previous list, with an item added:

Common themes:
1) Using Mantra charges does not feel impactful
2) Karma needs too many stats to be effective with her current kit
3) The duality aspect of her spells does not feel significant enough
4) Spirit bond is not satisfying or has too high of a burden of knowledge on your lane mate
5) Her lack of hard CC compared to other supports makes her feel weak as a 0 CS support, which feeds into 2).
6) The progression of her spells doesn't feel significant.

And, my first pass at an updated, general list:

1) Abilities should feel impactful. This does not necessarily mean damage.
2) Be mindful of the amount of stats your concept needs, compared to the amount of income they are able to put towards those stats.
3a) If making a support, some form of hard or soft CC should be part of the kit in a way that allows you to use it responsively.
3b) If making an AP, have enough spells that combine in a clear or meaningful way to keep the gameplay interesting.
4) When you are trying to establish a theme with your champion, make sure that theme carries into gameplay clearly.
5) Try to avoid placing a high burden of knowledge on your team. Use clear visual cues to communicate the language of your skills.

Does that seem about right? Using the key points that have been identified in this thread, how can you improve your own concept/s?
I think 4 is where riot failed her the worst and I hope Morello reads this he said awhile ago that they did not like to mix concepts (lore/myths) however this is what they did with her yin-yang theme is Chinese and mantra is Indian. She is supposed to have wind magic but I do not get that in her kit. She is trained under Janna so I get the shield thing. If I were to remake her I think the ult is the part that stands out as not belonging to Karma.

I think what makes Karma Karma is the fans, the yin-yang theme(I think the part I would focus on is passive/aggressive philosophy) and wind magic with a nod to Janna as well as the concept of enlightened balance.

I think what makes a good support is having 2 forms of cc like you said and at least 1 form of assist magic. I think what limits them from being an AP carry is a limited number of offensive spells (2)

In the end what I would do to change her kit is to drop mantra and give every spell duel nature(staying with the theme of yin-yang) one passive and one aggressive and make it so that when you cast a passive spell then the next spell will be aggressive and vice versa. So this way you get the feel of balance so that she is both passive and aggressive but never both (maybe I should expand upon this whenever a spell is cast whatever spell is cast next is the opposite nature not the next time you cast that spell although it could be if that is the next spell you cast) .

And my question to Riot staff, Morello and RiotGuinsoo is who do you see Karma as what makes Karma Karma??? I know you give the art team a run down of who they are and what the should look like what would that run down look like now is mantra still in the vision or do you feel like I do that it does not fit the kit and who she is?

Finally why I like Karma and what drew me to her is the first place is the art, kicking butt with fans and her being a support.

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Thryale ?? Senior Member
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08-09-2012

sigh. no, not really. I don't agree with half of your list riotames. In fact, I just played a game as karma and dominated mid against a karthus. Karma plays like mord; you play as a bully in lane. Clear creep waves and harrass. Always shield and heal, never die. TBH, only bursty mids like LB or possibly annie could shut down a karma mid.

I beg of you, don't take this aspect away. I love the duality of her spells with her mantras. I love the feeling of control I have when I get a cooperative team. (teamwork is key) And I love how she can excel at more than just 0 cs bot. Plz don't take that from me with her remake.

I love how her shield is one of the largest aoe nukes in the game. I love how she has an aoe skill shot heal. (which atm is -the- most unique skill in the game) And I feel these things are what makes karma karma.

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RiotAmes RiotAmes's Avatar ?? QA Analyst
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6 of 7 Riot Posts
08-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thryale View Post
sigh. no, not really. I don't agree with half of your list riotames. In fact, I just played a game as karma and dominated mid against a karthus. Karma plays like mord; you play as a bully in lane. Clear creep waves and harrass. Always shield and heal, never die. TBH, only bursty mids like LB or possibly annie could shut down a karma mid.

I beg of you, don't take this aspect away. I love the duality of her spells with her mantras. I love the feeling of control I have when I get a cooperative team. (teamwork is key) And I love how she can excel at more than just 0 cs bot. Plz don't take that from me with her remake.

I love how her shield is one of the largest aoe nukes in the game. I love how she has an aoe skill shot heal. (which atm is -the- most unique skill in the game) And I feel these things are what makes karma karma.
There seems to be some confusion that I'm asking these questions to directly influence her remake - it's mostly intended as an exercise for the posters on this forum to try and understand what the flaws of a given champion are, how to identify them, and improve their own concepts as part of that process.

Which isn't to say that the feedback here can't inform some decisions that might get made about her eventual rework or any other, but that's not my goal here.

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