Now that's one that I never really thought about before, at least not directly. I've always made champions while almost completely ignoring items, assuming they will be used in the usual ways, only being mindful of overtly overpowered item interactions, but this is a huge point. And one I'm not sure how to implement easily, as it blurs the line between making a cohesive kit, and balancing all the numbers for that kit.

Is it enough to just make sure a AP or AD champion has a way to farm effectively (and interestingly), or would it ask something more of the designer, asking you to plan the champion to farm better or worse based solely upon the fact that they depend on a greater or fewer number of stats?

Is such design even sound?

Maybe I'm pushing this too far in my mind. Maybe it is just that if you plan to scale off of AP, AD, MR and HP, then you need to have the means to farm all that up, so you'd sacrifice somewhat in the skills to get that farm, in exchange for whatever great benefit it has for you.

Maybe I'll stick with my old guns and shy away from depending on that many factors as a rule of thumb. Albeit, with good enough reason, that rule could easily be broken, but you'd need a good, good reason, more than just 'because you can'.

Definitely keep an eye on that concept in my designs though...

I don't get too deep into kit when I'm thinking about designs- I'll write up some potential skills that I think work thematically with a champion and stop there. Then again, I'm not an aspiring designer.

The problem that people are discussing about Karma is that if she fills the role most people think she does, she requires items because much of her power is centered around her math and not things like CC, buffs, or debuffs.

I've seen similar discussions for ADCs, APs, and tops- sometimes you have to pick up one or two items to 'correct' weaknesses in a champion's kit. You just have to be able to afford to do it.

If it weren't for the implosion it would cause in the forums, it would be fun to see you suggest a champ, and let us review it...

Ahh, ok.

That's half the reason I love to play Singed so much, because there just about isn't a wrong item on him (other than AD, but even then, who knows), everything builds him into a more potent tank, and he's got the farm to afford all of it. But I can see how this would come up with other champs, especially since it is apparently good design theory to not cover all of your bases, but leave holes for the player to fill with their builds as they see fit.

I suppose then, when designing a champ, once it gets past the prototype phase, it would be important to feel out how one would have to play with the champ. How much it would need to adapt to its weaknesses, and how easily it can accrue the means to do so. A whole world of stuff to keep track of out there, eh?

1.) How she feels: Karma’s mantra+shield feels awesome. There is a satisfying particle flash, and a distinctive sound. Her wave feels decent without mantra, with the instant damage and sound, and feels great with mantra, with the green particle and extra sound effect. Her bond feels okay, and I like it while chasing, but the particle and sound don’t change much with the addition of mantra. Aesthetically, there isn’t any incentive to using it with mantra, it just looks and feels the same. Maybe just a simple aesthetic buff on her mantra+bond would make it feel better to use.

2.) Needs lots of stats: What really cripples Karma is how she’s limited by mantra charges, so CDR is a key essential stat no matter how you build her. Perhaps a shorter cooldown on mantra charges? And if not that, maybe you gain a charge upon kill/assist?

3a.) Support Karma: Karma doesn’t have the cc of the peeling supports (Janna, Alistar) and she can’t sustain as efficiently as Sona or Soraka. There are also initiator supports like Blitzcrank and Leona, but Karma doesn’t have the cc for that either. I’ve heard talk of some kind of cc on her Q (I’m thinking Rammus Powerball bump), and I think that would definitely prove useful, possibly even instead of her heal. This might remove her theme of balance, being an offensive spell that gains a defensive component with mantra. However, cc is defensive as well as offensive, so it would still feel supporty.

3b.) AP Karma: Karma’s range is pretty short, and she has no strong cc. Most mages have longer range and a way to chase or lock down an enemy, and Spirit Bond just doesn’t compare to a snare/stun or a Gragas Body Slam. Additionally, her lack of an ult is more problematic here. Most mages have an absurd nuke ult, many of them AoE and strong cc. With only two reliable damage spells and no way to lock down, she falls short here. I feel that without that ult mechanic, she will never be quite as strong an AP nuke, and that instead her support aspects should be focused on. This doesn’t mean get rid of her passive AP or her nukes, I really like that she can deal damage as well as support. I just think she should be a support first, and a small nuke second.

4.) Theme: Considering she's Karma, one thing I think would be really cool for a replacement to her bond would be an ability where she puts an easily noticeable mark on an ally, and if any enemy deals damage to this marked ally, they are slowed. It would be like karma, you hurt someone, you get slowed. This would definitely make her feel more like a support, and it matches her perfectly. And with mantra, it could possibly do some damage back or something.

5.) Confusingness: Well, this might be an issue for what I just suggested. I truly have no idea how something like that would work, or how well it would be understood. I also don’t know how infuriating it would be to play against; it could be the next troll pool. However, I also argue it wouldn’t be any more confusing than her spirit bond ability.

It’s really difficult trying to think about all the things that go into a champ, and all the potential issues. Props to you guys.

Hello Riot Ames.
I am a player that loves to support and I must say I love Karma too.

There are some issues with her and the actual "meta", and some tweaks coudl make her "feel" way better than she is. Below is a small list of my critics/suggestions:

1) As mentioned, her progressions doesn't feel significative. Because in the current meta she is played as 0cs support. Maybe increasing the base values and lowerign the scales woudl make the progression more significative. But like sona, you must focus in a skill to feel it's significance.

2) Her mantra. It is a very nice and interesting mechanic, but I feel they could refresh faster and/or we could have more of them. Maybe make the number increase to 3~5 according to her level. Also, as she is all about equilibrium. What about a bonus for EACH mantra remaning? That would make her even more tatical and people would need to think if it's better to use them or not. Bonus like HP5, Mp5, Armor and MR are some nice examples (as if they they were part of her "chi/ki/aura" and would get stronger with more energy stored).

3) Her spirit bond is pathetic. I think it needs a rework. It should damage the target. Also, it would be interesting if you could also cast the other extremity on the ground so It would stick in the 1st champ that passed through it. It would give a way more tatical use.
Also, the move speed value isn't -very- worth and this skill would be the last I would cast with mantra on. Maybe increasing the slow and giving an additional effect when used with mantra? A sweet example would be increase/decrease of attack speed.

4) Her passive. It's a good passive, won't denny that, but not sure if it fits a 0cs meta support (more useful if she is used like a mage or top). What about something more related to "balance"? Like, a bonus based on the number of allied and foe champions in the area. If the enemies are in higher number, it gets stronger.

5) Regarding her appearance, I would say I like it, I just don't like her hair. Maybe a long smooth oriental hair?
Her fans should be less aggressives too, and those iron pieces on her back are a bit odd.


That's my critics on her. Sorry for any grammar mistakes.
Nice week all.

Astral Yorae

I like that Karma can be an AP support, like Lulu/Soraka/Janna. What I want to see:

1. Make Mantra Tether actually worth something. Either a triple slow or snare would make it feel so much better. I know bringing in DotA is silly but Wisp has so many more ways to abuse his, and it is really rewarding to use it right. The shared healing aspect would be really cool add-on to the skill.

2. 3 mantras, it just feels dumb how quickly you burn through them

3. Her AA range needs to come up. No one is playing her AD, and she would have so much of a better time if she could last hit like a normal AP

4. Shield is awesome, don't touch it.

5. Wave is okay, I just feel the mantra version needs to change, because while I get it isn't supposed to be for sustained, the effective "CD" on the heal is so long that when you don't land it right you feel awful and you just want to blame your teamates for running around so much.

Personally, I think that she shouldn't have too much CC and instead be focused around increasing damage done by the team. Also, her passive should also add passive CDR per level OR seriously reduce mantra CD.

I believe Karma should have the ability to be played as both an AP carry, and a support.

In order to make it seem like mantra does something, you should consider having different but similar (not improved) abilities based on whether mantra was used or not. Meaning, mantra would function slightly different from now. Instead of buffing the abilities, it should change them slightly (in other words, change what they are used for)

Examples:

Q deals more damage in a bigger AoE if no mantra is used, but if it is, then it heals but deals less damage in a smaller AoE.

W (the line, i believe) should simply have a massive speedbuff if used without mantra on an ally. If used with mantra, instead buff some of the stats of the ally but the speedbuff is drastically reduced.
If used without mantra on an enemy, slight damage and big slow. If used with mantra on enemy debuff his/her stats and damage a lot.

E (shield) should shield and do AoE damage without mantra, and become an AoE shield with mantra. Meaning, the current mantra shield would become the normal mantra. And the new mantra shield would become the current non-mantra shield, but instead would shield allied champions within a radius (perhaps a lesser shield).

Counter-Arguments and my response to them:

Burden of knowledge.
-Can be remedied via visual indicators. Different colors for skills based on whether mantra was used or not. for example, alter karma's stance if mantra is active. Recolor skills based on whether mantra was used or not.

Lack of CC/Utility
-False. With my current iteration of Karma, she has massive utility. A slow, stat buffs/debuffs, heal, AoE shield. Moreover, she has tons of damage.


That's just my opinion. I would LOVE some feedback.

As someone who also loves Karma and her mechanics.

I see it as perfectly fine having Karma's tether do no damage to her target, but I would think somethign more than just a slow here, and because it's a relatively minor slow at that.

Like I think I read somewhere in here, if the enemies affected by the tether had reduced aspd, or atk damage, or maybe even taking a portion of their damage (like if an AD carry attacks someoen with thornmail). And for allies, the opposite effects, increased aspd, or atk damage, or extra lifesteal.

Because she has no ult, some of that "ultimate" power in the form of her mantras should be added to her skills, like the 5% heal on the Q, great; the shield's huge AoE damage, great; just that tether where adding the mantra doesn't really seem as impactful.

Karma's kit is really fun, and she's pretty good in many positions, it's just as a support, her "utlility" that she brings tends to be damage, which is great and all, but all the other supports brings more than just that:

Soraka: Healing both mana and health
Janna: CC's and amazing ult
Taric: Auras, armor, stun
Sona: Auras, AoE stun
Blitzcrank: CC heaven
Leona: More Damage, Stunlock
Nunu: Aspd, movement speed, and decrease aspd and movement speed
Alistar: CC and press R be invincible
Lulu: So much stuff ... Shield, Health, AP, movement speed, vision on enemy, silence on enemy, slow

So sure, the 1 support I listed without a hard CC, Nunu, he's viable because what he doesnt' have in hard CC, he's got an amazing slow/aspd debuff, and his ultimate just makes people not want to walk in there.

But as Karma, when your extra utility you bring is damage, you tend to need AP for that (also need AP for a better heal), and even then, you must use a mantra charge to do it, otherwise it's just a normal shield (which is good in its own ways), but comparing it to the other shields that Lulu and Janna bring to the field, it's pretty lackluster. As it's side effect is limited by your mantra charges, whereas Janna's and Lulu's shield's side effects are always there.

I think what it boils down to is the mantra charges, and the tether, otherwise her kit and fun playstyle is great!

Just had an idea too, what if the tether gave the target (only target), invisibility if an ally, and sight if an enemy?

Karma is based on the duality of her skills: offensive/defensive. Her Q is an offensive skill but with Mantra is a defensive heal. Her W is both offensive and defensive with the effectiveness amplified with Mantra. Her E is a defensive shield that with Mantra is a offensive AoE nuke.

A lot has been mentioned of her lack of cc. Her slow, when mantra'd, is comparable to Kayle and Sona's though it lasts a bit longer if the bond is held. BUT, Kayle has more damage than Karma, and Sona has an ultimate with cc. Any sort of knockback could be considered offensive or defensive and therefore should be on her W: Spirit Bond. If she were to get some sort of harder cc this is what I would suggest:

-Take away the damage/slow from passing through the beam.
-Keep the slow % and the double slow from the mantra
-Add a short range knockback around the targeted player and if the targeted player is an enemy, it will also knock them back in the direction of the bond.
-The knockback should be activated similar to Sion's "Death Caress" with a shorter activation time. If the spirit bond breaks before activation, nothing happens.
-Activating the knockback breaks the bond

Karma's sustain in lane is very comparable to any of the supports as she is the only one with both a heal and a shield. Like many of the other supports, she has to choose to be more agressive or defensive with her abilities, especially with her mantras.

I've always liked Karma and would love to see her played more.

@riotames

Can you PLEASE answer this question with a simple "yes" or "no", 'cause you've kind of skirted it with all your posts.

Is karma actually BEING remade by guinsoo? 6 months ago, we heard she was being worked on, and the way his posts went, it sounded like the kit was completed a while ago and just needed some testing (I specifically remember hearing that she'd beat a garen solo top). The most recent update was a vague post in the stealth remake thread, saying that karma was on the agenda, as well as katarina and soraka.

But the way you've been posting, it sounds like they trashed it. Can you PLEASE tell me that that's not the case? or at least, tell me that it is the case, if it's the case, but say it nicely?
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If you want to just answer that top part, feel free to cut below the convenient line
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That being said, I think that karma suffers, because her skills do not multi-function without her mantras. Every champion in this game has at LEAST one skill that serves a multi function. karma, however, without her mantras, has very VERY plain skills that don't really do much. Her Q is a damager. That's it. Her W is a slow/speed, but a rather wimpy one, and a REALLY awkward move to damage with, considering that it doesnt damage the target you leash it to, and it also places a burden of knowledge on your entire team. This, however, is the only spell that has any duality, because her E is just a sheild. No armor, or mr, or damage. Just a shield. Not nearly as good as janna's, or lux's, or orianna's, nope. It's a sheild.

If you were to give her an ultimate, even a good one, like janna's ult, she'd probably be UP, because her skills are so plain and ordinary, and as a support, they don't bring much to the ad carry. That's the issue with her, her ultimate makes her skills as good as regular champion's skills, rather than buffing them. Therefore, she's a normal champion without an ult, which is frustrating.

Her passive is also extremely problematic. It rewards getting low on hp, which is dumb, especially for someone who's supposed to be able to support. As a support, you have neither the deathcap to make it really worth while or the hp to save you from being 1 shotted at such low hp. It supports a really bad play idea, and it needs to be replaced, if her kit remains similar. The only merit it gives is being able to heal yourself up faster with the % heal, however, the bonus doesn't really linger. Also, the bonus is semi pathetic, especially for the work you have to do to get it.

Another problem with the passive is that it doesn't really add anything to her game play. I think that karma actually needs some complexity from her passive, because she only has 3 skills to begin with, rather than 4.

Just some errant thoughts, and I would really REALLY like it if you would answer the first inquiry.