This.

If you feel that way, you're probably correct that I'm living in a world of assumptions that's almost completely off of what builds and itemization that are optimal currently.

However, I feel that's our main disagreement - I fundamentally don't want Garen to be a character who must stomp on his lane in order to be relevant. Granted, that's a lot of what competitive top-lane is at the highest tiers - which is a problem that has to be solved but that's a problem that a single champion cannot tackle.

The core thing right now with Garen on live is that he *absolutely* must stomp his lane in order to be relevant at all mid to late game. On lane, if you "tie" a lane versus Garen, Garen automatically loses. While this is intrinsic to Garen's feel on live - I don't think this is ultimately healthy for the champion overall.

Many of the things I've touched is to hit Garen's ability to simply stomp his lane out in order for total dominance - but I really want to make sure that Garen also doesn't need to stomp his lane out in order to be relevant. Unfortunately, at very high ELO - top lane is so incredibly snowbally that this is always the case - but top lane is something we need to fix in other ways - some of which do include nerfs and changes to some of the most overpowered top-laners at this time.

We'll see as time goes and adjust as needed.

Xyph, I'm afraid these changes leave me confused.

His E damage has gone down, and his tankiness from W without items has gone down. How does this incentivize him to build less defensive items if AD is less valuable to buy while armor/MR are now more valuable to buy?

Further, I'm a bit troubled at the lack of a one-point-wonder skill; both Q and W have heavy incentives to level now.

Lastly, I'm concerned about his early game: no doubt, it needed to get toned down. It was possibly the most brutal top lane had. But nearly every single change makes his early game weaker; I'm concerned it may have gone too far, given the multitude of nerfs at once.

Out of curiosity, why do you guys hate early-game gambits like that?

LeBlanc, Pantheon, Garen...What's wrong with diverse power curves? They add depth to picks, from what I can see.

That attack speed could still be quite useful between Judgements.

Now, if only I could remember to use active items even a fraction as often as I use summoner spells...

His E damage hasn't gone down, I'm just an idiot who can't do math.

Also, there's not much reason to level W. The 20% part is static and doesn't rank. Just the duration of how long you take reduced damage, and the cooldown. At one point you'll have more damage reduction and more Tenacity for 1/3 less time than before. At two points it's as long of duration and more damage reduction / Tenacity. W is a "two point wonder" skill now to be approximately as effective as it was at 5 ranks before.

In general, a champion whose role is to completely invalidate the opposing character pick no matter who they are and then vanish is interesting for picks - but pretty bad for actual gameplay.

This isn't to say that counter-picks are bad - but if your role is solely to crush a lane and then be irrelevant - I'm not sure that's good. I feel like succesfull counter-picking is more interesting than 'This character auto-wins lane X and then disappears.'

Why so much condescension lately?

I can tell you this right now, he'll never be anything more than a top stomp no matter how much you want him to be.

He provides one thing: a single silence. He's clearly not a tank because there isn't a single thing that he does that makes him a threat (especially with these damage nerfs) or forces you to attack him.

Can you at least acknowledge that his ultimate is garbage compared to Riven and Darius, two champions with execute ultimates that do physical/true damage yet still provide more utility than Garen ever will?

Basically what I seem to be reading is that Xyph is trying to design for the good of the game, while still keeping the victim... I mean recipient of the update viable.