W gives him his boost in armour/MR, old Garen needed minion kills to get it to 25(which i think works out at 50 CS) which against his counters is brutally hard to do without getting poked to death. Now with the new W, he gets a percentage boost, but how can he get the bonus armour/MR when he can't get the CS in the first place? Either W, new or old just make him survive a little longer, but with the new W his early game will be harder as he won't be getting as much resist till he can get some items, which as i've said requires minion kills. Which will require him putting himself in danger. Don't know if i'm wording it right sorry ><

Eve and Twitch are not doing better than they were doing. Its an illusion. Id still take Karma over twitch or eve. Unless I knew this twitch was some 9000 elo player playing with a 9000 elo support vs 100 elo players and could snowball himself. Otherwise Id take jungle karma or AD karma anyday over them.

Oooh. I see the misconception now.

W gives you 20% without the need to stack it with CS. It just gives you 20% armor and magic resistance for free. No need to kill minions to stack it up. He just has bonus 20% armor and magic resistance passively.

Yeah, I know. It's a little boring. Leave me alone. >_> I just didn't see the point of a snowballing mini-game.

Xin Zhao and Evelynn are clearly better.

I like the effort put into it.


Twitch in other hand.

I think he is talking about itens. If you can't farm, you can't buy, and you can't make use of your W passive, outside the base stats.

Twitch is better now than before?

That is fine and all, but wouldn't that just make him survive a little longer? Maybe a poke or two? He'll still get stomped by ranged even with the free resistance, he will always have to put himself in danger to get any type of CS.

Thats what i'm trying to get across, not that the changes are bad, just that they don't really help against his numerous counters, accept surviving an extra hit or so. He'll still be hard countered by any ranged.

- 9 times out of 10 its better for your champ to not lose early game power in any of these cute "reworks". Early game power turns into late game power... "hoping" you survive early game top lane.. is not a viable game win-con.

Base Stats / Runes / Masteries - which can turn out pretty hefty overall.

Eve is not better. They simply changed her from a ward into karma state. You're giving him too much credit. I love you Xeph, no ****, you appoligized to use for stealth a long time ago. Dunno if you remember it but you were passionate about how stuff got lost, people were everywhere, etc.

But all these reworks have been ****. Xin has worked. Eve and Twitch are still garbage. Only they're workable garbage. Twitch works if you can snowball him 8-0-5 before 10 minutes. Eve... just doesn't work. Is Garen going to be the same? Are we ever going to see more number tweaks now that Eve is out? If garen is as bad as eve in the rework, will it take 4 more weeks of spring before you see your shadow and tweak his numbers? You guys are quick to nerf stuff but when stuff needs number tweaks it takes you 3 years, a boot up the *** and something I cant mention before you even acknowledge it.