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@Riot: Why would I ever play Garen... when I can play Riven?

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Judgeshowtunes ?? Senior Member
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08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
At a certain point - it might just be better to bite the bullet and have Garen do all physical damage. I'm a little leery of this because it does make him ridiculously easy to hard-counter in lane through armor.

Not sure on ultimate scaling at the moment. I'd rather look at Riven/Darius first to get a proper baseline for what these things should look like.
Not to be salty, but do you think he's actually avoiding armor-countering by having it deal magic damage? You can usually count on top laners to have 40-50 MR already, and getting around 100 armor is typical/easy for them. Given that Garen would not likely go for MPen over armor pen, this still makes his usual matchups pretty tanky vs all his stuff regardless. I think it would just be nicer overall if he could concentrate on armor pen and be done with it.

I might be showing my noob, but if his opponents start armor-stacking to counter him, early Last Whisper isn't a terrible option. It'd just be nice for his ult to not get reduced by something that he doesn't/can't really build.

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Apollinarius ?? Senior Member
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08-11-2012

Just wanted to take the moment and say thanks for reading and responding to this thread. I know we give you a hard time (myself probably more than most) and it's appreciated that you just don't dismiss us but rather try to explain the reasoning and alleviate what concerns you can.

At the end of the day, what we all want is for Garen to feel "mighty" as someone called "The Might of Demacia" should feel. Even if your changes may not have been as sweeping as what I'd hoped for (I still hate the channeled E and wish it was an instant spin because the best way to scale into late game as an AD champion is to autoattack lots for tons of damage) it is incredibly gratifying that Garen got some attention. Total AD scaling instead of bonus AD scaling on his E is wonderful.

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Xypherous Xypherous's Avatar ?? Technical Designer
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23 of 25 Riot Posts
08-11-2012

Quote:
Not to be salty, but do you think he's actually avoiding armor-countering by having it deal magic damage? You can usually count on top laners to have 40-50 MR already, and getting around 100 armor is typical/easy for them. Given that Garen would not likely go for MPen over armor pen, this still makes his usual matchups pretty tanky vs all his stuff regardless. I think it would just be nicer overall if he could concentrate on armor pen and be done with it.

I might be showing my noob, but if his opponents start armor-stacking to counter him, early Last Whisper isn't a terrible option. It'd just be nice for his ult to not get reduced by something that he doesn't/can't really build.
Doing a single damage-type generally means that if you lose early, you lose much harder than you would otherwise - because a marginal gold advantage means they can bulk up much more resistances against you. If for example, you manage to crush Vladimir early and get a hexdrinker - Vladimir has basically lost.

It's not that he can't later build to overcome it - but in lane - it does tend to exacerbate what happens when you start losing in the early case.

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Rossingol ?? Senior Member
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08-11-2012

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
It won't critically strike off your Q bonus damage. Sorry - just the total AD ratio portion.

This is how most of our on-next hits work - minus Gangplank whose had it since, forever. The other on-next hits simply don't benefit from critical strike - which we'll need to do a pass on in the upcoming months.
How does his Q interact with Jax's Dodge and Fiora's Parry?

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SulphoR ?? Senior Member
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08-11-2012

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Doing a single damage-type generally means that if you lose, you lose much harder than you would otherwise - because a marginal gold advantage means they can bulk up much more resistances against you.

It's not that he can't later build to overcome it - but in lane - it does tend to exacerbate what happens when you start losing.
but isnt that why top lane is so toxic? because it snowballs too easy, and has a relative power threshhold you must hit to compete. you can change it so it scales then fix top lane after.

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Croanin ?? Senior Member
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08-11-2012

I could have sworn Judgement always ignored unit collision.

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Super Explosion ?? Senior Member
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08-11-2012

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
The trade-off only needs to be made early game - I believe. Since resourceless-ness is primarily an early game advantage - the penalty they take should only be an early-game thing as well.
Resourcelessness is an advantage in extended engagements.

Basically, you look at the timeframe this champion is going to be using his abilities in.

Right, so Darius uses mana. But, he can also push the lane and overpower his opponent in lane.

At which point he safely returns to base, and comes back with more mana.

Based on his kit, mana is not a limitation for Darius.

Garen, presently, can also do the same thing. So having no resource is not an advantage for him.

If Garen's cooldowns were drastically reduced lategame, perhaps by levelling his Ult, having no resource would be a great advantage, and cause him to scale into lategame easily.

The Resource/Cooldown dichotomy is not a clearcut gamestage advantage maker, it depends on the champion involved.

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IMelchorI ?? Senior Member
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08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SulphoR View Post
but isnt that why top lane is so toxic? because it snowballs too easy, and has a relative power threshhold you msut hit to compete. you can change it so it scales then fix top lane after.
please dont. how long will that take? IF its entirely possible, im going out on a guess here, that they dont even know this themselves yet.

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Xypherous Xypherous's Avatar ?? Technical Designer
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24 of 25 Riot Posts
08-11-2012

Quote:
but isnt that why top lane is so toxic? because it snowballs too easy, you can change it so it scales then fix top lane after.
Sorry - I think I've lost you here. The quote was in reference to single-damage type characters.

Quote:
I could have sword Judgement always ignored unit collision.
It did. I just generally found that full ghost provided very little counterplay in terms of lane dynamics/minions.

Quote:
Resourcelessness is an advantage in extended engagements.

Basically, you look at the timeframe this champion is going to be using his abilities in.

Right, so Darius uses mana. But, he can also push the lane and overpower his opponent in lane.

At which point he safely returns to base, and comes back with more mana.

Based on his kit, mana is not a limitation for Darius.

Garen, presently, can also do the same thing. So having no resource is not an advantage for him.

If Garen's cooldowns were drastically reduced lategame, perhaps by levelling his Ult, having no resource would be a great advantage, and cause him to scale into lategame easily.

The Resource/Cooldown dichotomy is not a clearcut gamestage advantage maker, it depends on the champion involved.
Resourceless is an advantage not only in extended engagements - but also removing opportunity cost from failed engagements. Basically resourceless characters can take advantage of many more opportunities because failed opportunities cost them far less.

I think we're speaking on the same page though - Like, my initial proposed changes for Garen's ultimate was 180/120/60 second cooldown or 160/100/40 second cooldown on his ultimate - but ultimately live balance decided to opt for something safer and less crazy.

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grim1 ?? Senior Member
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08-11-2012

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I've mentioned this in passing in other threads but I'll simply say that, yes, I agree that Riven's ultimate cooldown has no business being that short and that melee kitability is a problem most characters should face and itemize against.

I've said in numerous other threads how I'm displeased with Riven's current state and would like to change her early game dominance. There was even a Garen thread in which I specifically said what my thoughts were on manaless fighters in which I directly said manaless fighters shouldn't have low CD ults early on and that it was a core problem on Riven that her's was.

However - understand what I do - I don't do live balance. I'm working on itemization and content development. If I think something is overpowered - that doesn't mean that I get to jump in and change it - it's not the discretionary call of one person.

The counterplay and gameplay of top-lane is something that's on my radar - However, it's not something a single champion change can fix. You cannot keep making stuff "fit" in the current top-lane because what exists in the current top-lane is almost all poison. When you do so, bad things happen. The current power level of Darius is almost directly caused by how strong all the top-laners are and how snowbally that lane has become.
I honestly thought NO ONE at Riot knew any of this.

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