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The Tribunal - or lack there of

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Fersaken ?? Member
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09-24-2012

Greetings Summoners,

Before you say this is just another QQ thread about someone getting banned, it isn't. I have never been banned, and have been playing the game since the it launched. Heck, I even bought the game because it offered the original heroes. So you could say that I have been playing quite a long time. However recently I decided to start climbing the ranked ladder.

I come to these forums a good bit, but rarely ever post, primarily because these forums remind me of World of Warcraft.

But after reading and participating in the tribunal cases on several different occasions I have to say I think it is the most flawed justice system I have ever seen in my life.

The Tribunnal is not about whats right or wrong as a society, but what whats right or wrong in a single individuals eyes. What I mean by that is some people justify killing other people by whatever means they see fit. That makes it right in their eyes. Though the tribunnal is set up to be ran like a jury, it isn't. Even in court the prosecutor, and defender are allowed to pick / eliminate jurors. This is much more fair.

Instead here is an example: 15 random people decide to participate in the Tribunnal. These 15 people are all nice guys with a family, but more importantly there morals are that of a family man. When they see someone say something like, "quit feeding", or "you are bad" they would report that person. Now here they are judging people based of how they think. The Tribunnal case gets banned because of these 15 people. But what the perp did wasn't that bad.

Or in another case 15 elitest jerks could decide to participate. So they get on there and they all 15 decide "quit feeding", or "you are bad" is tolerable. Then they see the kill death ratio is 0-15. Obviously this person was feeding and not having a bad game. So they vote to Punish this person.

Or you could just have those people who really don't care to read any of it. But participate in it. They just randomly hit pardon, or punish. Without any thought to the process.

So no this system will never work it will punish the innocent, and set free the criminals.

While I know there is no fair system, even in the real world. I think players should have to go through a test or something. A personality test, and if they do not score high enough on this test, then they are not allowed to participate.

You could also stop players from going onto the next case for like 5 minutes. I know personally when I was being part of the tribunnal I took my time, read all of the chat log, looked at the scores, as well as the other cases ( in the event they had one ). Then I made a decision. This generally took about 5 minutes. This would stop the people who are only doing it just to be a-holes, or to get the ip.

I know how hard it must be for riot to manage each and every report that goes into the game, but I do not think letting the player base decide the out come is the way to go.

Thanks.

 
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Geekweezul ?? Senior Member
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09-24-2012

Riot has said that we are very accurate actually. In fact, Riot would be much more strict if the cases were just left up to them.

 
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Fersaken ?? Member
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09-24-2012

How can any one say we are accurate or not. And I don't think Riot would be more strict, because honestly they have more information at their disposal than what the player base has.

 
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LawGiver500 ?? Senior Member
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09-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fersaken View Post
Greetings Summoners,
I come to these forums a good bit, but rarely ever post, primarily because these forums remind me of World of Warcraft.
Lol true it can get like that sometimes. I find it depends primarily on how you address the people you are talking too. If you stay curt and polite people will often respond in kind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fersaken View Post
But after reading and participating in the tribunal cases on several different occasions I have to say I think it is the most flawed justice system I have ever seen in my life.
You are welcome to believe this but Riot staff insists that it is highly accurate. At what point would it benefit them to keep a system that is flawed when a majority of their income is based of active population and not micro-transaction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fersaken View Post
The Tribunnal is not about whats right or wrong as a society, but what whats right or wrong in a single individuals eyes. What I mean by that is some people justify killing other people by whatever means they see fit. That makes it right in their eyes. Though the tribunnal is set up to be ran like a jury, it isn't. Even in court the prosecutor, and defender are allowed to pick / eliminate jurors. This is much more fair.
Tribunal is not about what is right or wrong as seen by the society, because societal norms vary based on person to person thus why it is based on a generalized set of norms "The summoners code." Player tier tribunal is based off the validation of the an automated system that flags player with a high ratio of games played to games reported. What player tier does is effectively say Yes this player needs to be punished by riot, or no this player doesn't need to be punished. Tribunal(at the players tier) is not like the US court system in any way other because guilt or innocence is not determined by the players tier.

I'm going to stop there with the breakdown reposts, because the above addresses most of your continued "rant." Though i will point out some key points, At no point is someone subject to a 15 person review the minimum is 20 but Riot set that in the cases of low Tribunal access. the average case has hundreds of people judging as well as a riot staffer once the case moves past the player tier.

@OP Though you have been participating in Tribunal you fail to understand some key facts about it. Some people on this forum have been following the Tribunal and how it works since it was created. participation by no means shows understanding.

Tribunal is a multi-tier judgement system that starts off by an automated system generating a case file of a flagged player that has a high games played to games reported ratio. This case file is a collection of the players most resent games and is sent to a random selection of active tribunal participants at which point it is "judged/ validated" and is punished if low level (IE warning) or proceeds to a Riot staff member. The riot staff then does background on said player and decides punishment.

 
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TenienDaithen ?? Senior Member
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09-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fersaken View Post
How can any one say we are accurate or not. And I don't think Riot would be more strict, because honestly they have more information at their disposal than what the player base has.
They do audits of the system. They look at cases and see people who shouldn't be playing their game punished, and innocents pardoned.

So, you think they are lying every time they say they would be more strict?

 
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Lyte Lyte's Avatar ?? Lead Designer of Social Systems

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1 of 4 Riot Posts
09-24-2012

There's a few interesting points I'd like to add to the discussion:

1) Usually, only outlier cases where the verdict is apparently wrong is posted on the forums. So, much like the forum represents a small % of the active community for posters, the Tribunal cases you see on the forums are a small % of the total cases being processed by the Tribunal.

2) To put it bluntly, you rarely see the tens of thousands of cases every week that never end up on forums and the player simply says, "Doh... I look like a jerk and am embarrassed about this Reform Card."

3) If every time you see an outlier case on the forums, the Tribunal processes 10,000, 20,000 or 100,000 cases accurately... is the system broken? Players tend to see one outlier case and scream that we have to remove the Tribunal and that it's completely broken. Why?

4) Right now, we have several new territories that do not have Tribunal yet. We can directly compare player behavior in regions that have Tribunal versus regions that don't. After taking into account cultural differences, there's a huge difference in toxicity in regions that don't have Tribunal--so much that our international offices have asked Team Player Behavior to prioritize international launches of Tribunal.

Given how data-driven Team Player Behavior is, do you really think we would keep a system around if it was inaccurate or broken? If it was broken, I'd rather just design a brand new solution.

 
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Emailsupport7346 ?? Member
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09-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
3) If every time you see an outlier case on the forums, the Tribunal processes 10,000, 20,000 or 100,000 cases accurately... is the system broken? Players tend to see one outlier case and scream that we have to remove the Tribunal and that it's completely broken. Why?.
That question is easy to answer... Outliners are acceptable, as long as they are get reversed when they come up, which is currently not the case.

See the following case for reference:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../5640402/#nogo

 
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ZeIse ?? Senior Member
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09-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fersaken View Post
How can any one say we are accurate or not. And I don't think Riot would be more strict, because honestly they have more information at their disposal than what the player base has.
And they use that information, come to their own verdict, and find out that the playerbase has a much more lenient verdict overall.

Seriously, they outright said that they would be much stricter than what the community votes on average.

 
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Lyte Lyte's Avatar ?? Lead Designer of Social Systems

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2 of 4 Riot Posts
09-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emailsupport7346 View Post
That question is easy to answer... Outliners are acceptable, as long as they are get reversed when they come up, which is currently not the case.

See the following case for reference:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../5640402/#nogo
Not sure that is the greatest example. We do overturn outliers when warranted. If we check extra data on the account and they are on the edge, we usually don't overturn because it's obvious the player has had half a dozen chances by that point and still hasn't improved his behaviors.

 
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Akkina ?? Senior Member
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09-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emailsupport7346 View Post
That question is easy to answer... Outliners are acceptable, as long as they are get reversed when they come up, which is currently not the case.

See the following case for reference:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../5640402/#nogo
Why was this downvoted? He's right, in that particular instance the player in question in no way deserved permabanning. I can't even think of a reason for him to be punished, other than occasionally being liberal with his use of language.