Originally Posted by sirplayalot11
All I know is....Olaf's going to have a field day with this item.
Originally Posted by FnRedBaron
This analogy is bad. Assassins and ADCs perfom 2 very, very different roles. And, with the current trend towards releasing more and more bruisers and less less and less adc/support, assassins are having alot more truble dealing with the new meta than any adcs are, and I'm sure you're not so ignorant to know that.
Honestly assassins and AD carries want pretty similar things: More damage at (almost) all costs.
Now, AD Carries are more or less "built" to kill bruisers, and assassins are more or less "built" to kill ADCarries and Mages, but the tenet still holds true: Their goal is to kill things before they can fight back. ADC's do this by melting things from out of range, and Assassins do this by killing things extremely quickly under a Silence/Stun/Stealth. In either case, HP and Spell Vamp don't do much.
Your point about assassins and bruisers is kind of saying what I'm saying here... Talon players are getting super excited for the item, but it's just going to exacerbate how good bruisers are. Now bruisers get to build Brutalizer and use it while still gaining defensive stats. If anything, your lives just got worse.
What I can say, though, is that Season 3 has a lot of changes in store for assassins. Armor penetration is going to play nice with itself: % pen is going back before flat pen, meaning Brutalizer + Last Whisper just got a lot sexier, and overall, Pantheon and Talon are getting a lot happier. Flat resists got a bit more expensive, so they're going to do a better job against armor-splashing adc/mage/supports as well. Overall, it's going to be a nice change for the assassin role.
Originally Posted by H911Reiver
Phreak, you seem to be confusing Old Pantheon with Current Pantheon.
Old Pantheon had long cooldowns with extremely high burst.
Current Pantheon has extremely short cooldowns and far less burst. This means building tanky + CDR allows you to just sit in the fight and spam SS/HSS, whereas with old Pantheon you'd drop your combo, and then HSS would be sitting there with a HUGE cooldown (I think it was like 18 base at max rank?) instead of the 6 it has currently (3.6 with CDR)
They killed pantheon's burst =(
That's fair. You're right, Pantheon is sort of Renekton-esque. Very ability based. Wants low cooldowns. Pantheon probably does want this item, actually. But he probably wants it 3rd or 4th. His early game is still assassin-ey. He still has Mandrop -> Q/W/E/Auto/Q. He's still going to eviscerate someone squishy. His teamfighting, I'll give you. He's gonna want to be a bit more durable there, and CDR gets his passive back up, etc. He'll even want to spell vamp. But he does have burst. That's just a lie to say he doesn't.
Talon not so much though. Talon deals his first half of his damage while you're silenced, and he deals the second half while invisible. For him, your damage threats had already better be dead or chasing other targets, because he is all about the burst, extremely high AD ratios, and killing things. When you have something like a 5.0 AD ratio on your combo, not building a BFSword is pretty much throwing away what you're supposed to do on that champion.
Overall, I guess I did sort of mis-speak. You're right that someone like Renekton can easily be likened to AD-Caster, while not AD-Assassin. This is a Renekton item. It's just not a Talon item for sure. My main point is that ultimately, HP/Spellvamp are misleading. You're not going to get much out of them unless you actually commit and go a bit tanky. Spell Vamp is good on someone like Vladimir or Ryze because you're going to be absorbing blows and will build around that, surviving initial burst, and then building back up afterward. But it takes a committed build to do that. You can't just be Talon, buy this item, and go "K problem solved, I'll live in team fights now." It throws your build off. But, if you're Renekton, yeah it works there. Fair point.