Please read the thread before judging, otherwise feel free to ignore.

Hey lads, I'd like to have all of you thinking as 'open-minded' as you can, we're trying to specifically tackle things that could be better, we opt for improvements.

Throughout this thread, I'll be using quotes of people working for Riot - quotes from the official 'Champion
Retrospective' video. (On youtube, Riotgamesinc channel).

Adam Murguia approves of improvements, apparently; he wants League to be the best thing out there:

Adam Murguia - Art Director: 'It does go back to us being fans of the game - we want it to be epic - we want it to be the best thing out there.'

Great, we'd like to think like this as well. Please note how we do NOT intend to sound like spoiled/arrogant little brats - we give our opinion after critically observing a few aspects of the current champion-design model Riot has been using over the course of the years.

Let's see:

Marc 'Tryndamere' Merril - President/Co-Founder:'I think what really defines League of Legends from a character perspective is the diversity of characters.'

Jeff Jew - Producer: 'As a group of creative people, we look at it and think: What can we do with this, if we can make this the most awesome it could be without any constraints, what would that be ?'

Now this is where we think stuff has gone wrong - we like to think they are not the most awesome they could be.

Take Caitlyn for example:

That said, do you think Caitlyn could have more of a specific, sniper'ish playstyle ? We like to think so.

Now please note - we aren't trying to say Caitlyn's current kit is bad - but if she should be the 'ultimate' sniper out of all characters - why doesn't she feel like this, why isn't she the most awesome/purest sniping character she could've been ?

We feel this way. Suit yourself.

Now let's take Graves for example:

Brandon 'Ryze' Beck likes to think theme is very important however - and we most certainly agree.

Brandon 'Ryze' Beck - CEO/Co-Founder: 'Another thing that is really important to us is 'theme.' We really want characters to have a really central theme.'

Well said. Graves's theme was a guy with a big manly shotgun. Could he be a more characteristically 'shotgun-y' dude ?

Let's take a look at 'Shotguns' first:

Now what exactly waters his experience down as the ultimate shotgun champion ?

Though we like to think this:

'Hmm, could you give (more) examples of 'Riot designing just a kit and adding a theme afterwards' or not living up to the theme as much as they could have ?'

Sure.

'Why don't you think he does that currently ?'

'So basically you are trying to say that especially with Maokai, Riot tied the theming abilities/kit to visuals instead of the other way around: Coming up with pure nature/forest stuff and then designing abilities around these nature/forest ideas.'

'You mentioned the use of shotguns, snipers and the behaviour of fire and nature in reality, what does this have to do with the game - this is a game for god sake, not reality !'

This is a very good and appropriate question.

'Wait, wait, hold on ! Kha'Zix much ? This is bullsh...'

Brandon 'Ryze' Beck - CEO/Co-Founder: 'Rammus the armordillo. He wears a thick shell, it's spiky........ ....... his kit is very unified, you get he is going to be able to take a lot of damage, you get is going to be able to spin all over the map and that's an example of a thematically unified character.

.

Let's continue with ItemsGuy's post after all the examples and explanation I've given above:

Like the example I've used for Mordekaiser or the multiple examples ItemsGuy has given us: Realistic elements tied to abilities in League helps players to understand stuff more easily as it makes more sense, instead of tying huge bulks of text to abilities and tying them to visuals - This is what happens now.

'Hmmm..'

Ryan 'Morello' Scot - Lead Champion Designer: 'But what we really want to do - is create a good variety of champions, so that every player has a few to several champions that they are absolutely stoked about - instead of having like a whole slew of champions that people are not interested in and don't really buy into.'

'This is just bull****, they are part of her entire kit and playstyle !'

'Still a **** argument'

Possible argument: 'Take Annie for example - She can provide very strong ganks aswell !'

Feedback time !

Thread One: We explain why more unique playstyles could be awesome and how they are not nessecarily OP - Just different.

If you wanted to leave feedback how more specific playstyles would be OP - Read that thread.

Thread Two: We explain why not only we would like these more unique/dedicated playstyles, we also suggest why we might need them.

If you wanted to leave feedback such as - 'Well I don't want these changes, we don't need them !' please read that thread.

Thread Three, this thread: We explain how more unique playstyles could be done by living up more to the original concept of the champion. We suggest tying realistic elements to abilities and then to visuals makes sense - It's easier for people to understand - easier to pick up.

That said, you might ask yourself - Who is 'ItemsGuy' ?

Who am I ?

'Well you aren't suggesting anything ! You just basically say Graves, Caitlyn and stuff are bad and could be better, yet you don't suggest anything !'

Saved that for last, ItemsGuy has been working on redesigns the past 4 months - being a big part of his portfolio.

His redesigns concerning the champions we've specifically have mentioned in this thread:

-Caitlyn, the Sheriff of Piltover
-Graves, the Outlaw
-Maokai, the Twisted Treant
-Brand, the Burning Vengeance
-Zyra, Rise of the Thorns

Please note: All of the cooldowns, ranges, ratio's, base damage numbers are all ENTIRELY subjective - ItemsGuy approves of the fact they might need to be changed for balance.
Also this:

@IronStylus: We personally have invited you to the discussion because I like to believe you are an open-minded guy that likes to participate in a discussion if it's constructive and the subject discussion-worthy. Please feel free to help us out.

Thank you guys,

Perifear & ItemsGuy

EDIT: So TLDR ?
I'm just going to leave this smiley here:

Please do NOT comment now how Irelia is a good champion or not - if you haven't read the OP - Morphine just gave a very solid summary. We give all explanations and arguments to 'why' in all of our threads.
It's a very sensitive subject therefore we've choosen to give it all our love and input, long threads as a result.

-Reserved for potential FAQ.

Ah, yes, just the thread I was looking for!

My friend Peri here has laid out things well enough to provide for some solid discussions on the matter, but I'll kick off my involvement in this thread with a quick quote from Jesse Schell, game designer and author of The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses.

"Really, the problem is that games have only recently emerged as anything like a serious medium of expression. It will take time for the world to grow used to this idea. But we have no reason to wait. We can create games with powerful themes right now. But why? Why do this? Out of a selfish need for artistic expression? No. Because we are designers. Artistic expression is not our goal. Our goal is to create powerful experiences.
It is possible to create games that do not have themes or that have very weak themes. However if our games have unifying, resonant themes, the experiences we create will be much, much stronger.

The primary benefit of basing your design around a single theme is that all of the elements of your game will reinforce one another, since they will all be working toward a common goal. Sometimes it is best to let a theme emerge as you are creating the game. The sooner you have settled on a theme, the easier things will be for you, because you will have an easy method of deciding if something belongs in your game or not: If it reinforces the theme, it stays, but if it doesn't, it goes."

Now, while Mr. Schell here is talking about themes in the larger scale--entire games--it's still very applicable to the designing of champions (after all, what is a champion but a very small "game" within the larger game of League of Legends? Choosing your champion is simply choosing the experience you wish to have within a League match, and what are games but vessels for such experiences?), and the same rules can apply. The stronger and more unified a champion's theme, the more fulfilling playing that champion would be--even without the competitive context of LoL (making enjoying a champion less "I can use this champion to beat my opponents and win games!" and more "I really enjoy playing this champion!"--taking the joy of "winning" out of the mix to expose the true value of a champion).

Like the example I've made with such champions as Graves, does he have elements of "shotgun" in his kit? Certainly! But is he as "shotgun" as he can be? Do all the elements of his current kit lend themselves to this central theme of "shotgun"? No, his "rapid fire" is more characteristic of a revolver, and his smoke screen is more characteristic of a tear gas canister. You could say "well, he has a shotgun that was modified to act like these other guns!" (which falls into "using background information as an excuse" which is a bad sign, as it would place an even greater burden of knowledge on players as they'd have to read each champion's lore to understand how they work, instead of simply looking at their splash art and going "yeah, I've got a pretty good idea of what this guy does"), but a "modified shotgun" isn't as coherent a theme as "shotgun," just as "water with some oil and vinegar in it" isn't as pure a substance as "water."

Considering that League of Legends is home to over 100 champions, Burden of Knowledge could potentially become one of its greatest downfalls (as it's what keeps new players from picking up such games as DotA/2/HoN, and thus what will cut their lifespans down significantly--Riot prides itself in LoL's readability too, so more unified kits based around elements that are readily available to even the newest players at a glance is certainly a step in the right direction). Think of it this way: The more steps there are in between a "new player" and "fun" (such as mechanical complexity, Burden of Knowledge, etc.), the less likely they will become to reach "fun" and thus the less likely it is for them to see a reason to continue playing.

While I know this may be a daunting subject to discuss (made even more daunting by the sheer amount of text we've provided, haha), I feel that it's something that should at least be skimmed over! Whether there are some points that we make that you disagree with, or if you think there is a better way to tackle this problem, or whatever other input you may have, I 100% encourage you to leave your thoughts here!

Conversation may start off slowly, but we fully intend to tug on the sleeves of those Riot employees who have proven to be not only outstanding members of Riot Games Inc., but members of the community as well--and hopefully discussion from players will pick up as a result!

While things like the current state of Diana's viability or how item X is overpowered will always be talked about (the first page of GD is regularly overwhelmed by numerous threads on the same topic), this is something that really isn't brought up often (if ever) and showing your support for League by engaging in thoughtful discussion on matters pertaining to League of Legends as a game you've dedicated weeks, if not months or years to, is one of the biggest things as you can do as a community member.

So come on in! All thoughtful discussion will be given all the attention and respect it deserves, so feel free to disagree with us if you feel you have a solid point--and even if you agree with us, feel free to explain why!

Specifically that marked in Bold - I hadn't even come up with this myself. I got how tying lore to inappropraite/unlogical kit designs would sound very stupid though I did not realize this causes another problem entirely:

The burden of knowledge you mention.

Thanks for clearing that up :)

While lore and League Judgments/JoJ (rest in peace ;_;7) are some of my favorite parts of LoL, that sort of background material should act to flesh out characters and follow the rule of "if it gets in the way of the theme, scrap it"--not act as an "explanation" for a disjointed theme/kit/playstyle--such as Diana's lore enforcing the fact that she's a "100% committing assassin"--many of her abilities need to be explained in order to be understood, unlike the "Rengar's a hunter and he's going to hunt you" aspect of Rengar's character--which essentially require players to not only read her lore, but understand the core of her character (which doesn't really have anything to do with any sort of "moon" theming) if they want to even have an idea of how she plays before either A) buying her and trying her out, B) sitting through a 10-minute-long video that may or may not include some horrible misinformation (building Infinity Edge on Blitzcrank), or C) getting wrecked by her repeatedly in-game.

Whereas I agree that Maokai's kit is a bunch of spells fit for a tank haphazardly stuck together, he still does thrive with area control. His saplings double as wards, yet are the highest base damage spell in the game. They simply work better as harass, especially late game when if someone walks into one placed as a ward, the saplings get outrun. His ult relies on everyone sticking together, and his passive works well in team fights when everyone's tossing spells haphazardly. So, while his kit is very "area control" and "invasive" (taking health from other "trees" (other players) much like certain kinds of tree), his kit doesn't fit, nor is it very clear. I mean, yeah, considering if you stand in his ult he's going to be doing SOMETHING and you don't want to stand in there when he does that certain something, but nothing else really is unsurprising from an angry tree other than angry saplings (that somehow explode).

Yeah, I get what you're saying--while they (ult, saplings) do create shades of a "territorial" playstyle, which is coherent with his theme in a more abstract (and less noticeable) sense, they don't do it in a readably "tree-like" way--Maokai himself is fairly mobile (due to his gap-closing root) and his strongest spell strays away from intrinsic power (not only is it long-range, it's disjointed from Maokai himself--taking away from a "solid" feel which is important on champions like Malphite and Sejuani, whose ranged aspects get in the way of coherency). His Innate, snare, and ult are poor in terms of readability as well, and his Arcane Smash just feels out-of-place.

And, while his saplings and ult do lend themselves to a territorial playstyle, there is very little "tree" or "forest" about these abilities! They're a means to an end, though, but they help his case only in name. Using my redesign as an example, his "territorial" nature could be expanded upon, developed, and made characteristically "Maokai" if it encouraged less of a mobile playstyle (very little about Maokai is different in this regard--he's still encouraged to have the "well I have these abilities and I'm supposed to use them on the right person at the right time" mindset, as opposed to a more "this is MY forest" way of thinking--and thus, acting and reacting), and rewarded Maokai more for establishing his presence by making him incredibly difficult to get past.

One thing I totally forgot about, I used to have my 'complexity for the sake of complexity' thread. It was a misleading title as I wasn't aiming or wasn't trying to discuss complexity for the sake of complexity at all. - My bad, the thread died in peace.

That said, the thread died yet Morello did leave a comment that was very interesting:

This is entirely what we are trying to do with the changes we suggest.

We want to create more depth for champions, more of a specific, unique playstyle, while keeping the 'playability' of the champion on a similar level.

The changes will make the game harder indirectly as champions will be able to pull off more things as they are individually more different from eachother, thus increasing their skillcap, not even touching or barely touching their skill floor.

How ? By making champions more specifically living up to their initial theme, concept and playstyle, that in combination with tying realistic elements to abilities: This helps a even more 'newb-friendlier' environment and helps the players master the game even more quickly: All the things champions can do make sense, rather than having to tie huge bulks of text - abilities as they are known right now - to visuals.

Funny how Morello even mentions how he'd like to do this himself yet he would understand the changes would be drastic and might cause people getting mad as they might not like the reworked champion anymore, therefore we suggest the changes we ask for probably are more appropriate for something we like to call 'LoL 2' for now.

That said, feel free to discuss lads, I believe there are a lot of questions that could use alot of answers from Riot and opinions from the community.

Eep, this is super super long. To give a quick tl;dr for readers, am I correct in saying that what you aim to achieve is a stronger sense of thematic cohesion for champions, spanning from playstyle to role to artwork? With something like Vayne playing and feeling like a very cohesive 'witch hunter' (from role to playstyle to thematic tie-ins to dialogue) and something like Irelia feeling very disjointed (a young girl in control of magic flying blades as a melee bruiser rather than someone with a lot of poke / zone control / ranged harass)?