[CENTER]Please read the thread before posting, otherwise feel free to ignore.[/CENTER]
In this thread, we will discuss what it means to be a Champion in the League of Legends and why fully realizing this is important to all aspects of the game.
I'll be using quotes from Rioters in the official Champion Retrospective video to direct the discussion.
Before we start, I'd like to introduce ItemsGuy and myself, BestBilbo, as the authors of this thread.
ItemsGuy is going for an MFA in Interactive Design/Game Development at the Savannah College of Art and Design, and has taken multiple courses regarding character design in video games.
I, BestBilbo, am from EUW, my Elo is ~1600-1700 on my main 'Perifear'. I feel the same way as ItemsGuy and after we've bumped into each other I've learned a lot. We've been working together on these threads ever since.
Let's go:
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Originally Posted by Adam Murguia - Art Director
It does go back to us being fans of the game - we want it to be epic - we want it to be the best thing out there.
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Originally Posted by Marc 'Tryndamere' Merril - President/Co-Founder
I think what really defines League of Legends from a character perspective is the diversity of characters.
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[CENTER]First of all - How is a playstyle defined?[/CENTER]
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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy The value of a playstyle can be measured by how much the player is encouraged to think like the character they’re playing through coherency within the kit as well as its thematic unity and how distinct that method of thought is—because the more distinct it is, the more room it creates for counterplay, and the more counterplay there is in a game, the more fun and fresh each game will be. It's not just about creating a more dynamic game (creating more flavors of the same role, such as siege/poke mage or high-mobility ambush mage or set-up and turtle mage), but about enriching the player's experience. In our opinion - playing a champion shouldn't simply be having access to 5 (or 9) abilities for 20-50 minutes, it should be stepping into a champion's shoes and romping around for a while. |
He looks tricky, feels tricky, he plays tricky and his playstyle is so defined and different from the 'typical assassin' in League that he does not feel generic. Shaco plays like Shaco - like no other champion does.
[CENTER]How do we view current champion design versus how we feel it should be ?[/CENTER]
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Originally Posted by Jeff Jew - Producer
As a group of creative people, we look at it and think: What can we do with this, if we can make this the most awesome it could be without any constraints, what would that be?
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Sadly, we don't think the current state of champions are as awesome as they could be. Please keep your minds open about this: we know that Riot has worked hard on everything for years. I (Perifear) am not a designer while ItemsGuy is still studying, we just critically observe stuff and give our opinion.
Take Heimerdinger for example - we know he's being reworked - we just feel his concept could be stronger.
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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy Whether you've played Heimerdinger or not, he's mostly known for his turrets--he's the only one that can make them, and they're fairly iconic to him as a character (a little inventor dude that makes gadgets). Everything after this, however, is where it goes in all the wrong directions. Heimerdinger's effectiveness doesn't come from intelligent use of his turrets or other inventions; instead, it comes from constant pokes with his rockets and sweet-spotting his grenades. |
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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy That would be the case, if they actually felt like something special to him--but when it comes down to it, they're pretty much just "magic spells" with rocket and grenade skins. The fact that they both outclass his turrets--his most iconic ability--doesn't help his gameplay experience. He feels less like a "Revered Inventor," and more like an engineer that wants to be a mage--and it shows, in that he's outclassed by just about every other mage out there, because they one-up him in every field they share with him (burst damage, AoE damage, crowd control), and the one thing that's characteristically Heimerdinger is left in the dust because it doesn't fit on the "standard mage kit." Now, I'm well aware that he's facing a rework-taken from the notes on surrender@20, he is allegedly getting a new passive (X mana for every Y minion deaths), turrets with an ammo system that occasionally fire skill shots, more missiles, faster grenades, and an ult that empowers one of his main abilities. While yes, this is a direct buff to him and allows him to stand with other mages in their respective field, but what does it do for our little inventor buddy? It seems that you simply want to make him more powerful in the same way every other mage is, instead of using the rework as an opportunity to fix him from the ground-up and make him a champion all his own. This can't really be done with his current kit as it is--no matter how you shift the numbers--because as long as he has two "general mage" abilities, they will always leave his turrets in the dust because he's more of a mage than an inventor. |
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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy This is an assumption on the basis of Heimerdinger having the fortification of his turrets as well as the ability to poke like a mage, which is an imbalance in design, not just through numbers. Making him rely on his inventions and playing more defensively would give him defined strengths and weaknesses that are both clear as day and thematically tied to his appearance and character, so that he is both satisfying to play and satisfying to counterplay. |
We think that a lot of champions could benefit from a well-defined playstyle that enriches the player's gameplay experience.
We'd love to be Heimerdinger the 'Revered Inventor' rather than a mage that drops a turret then pokes.
We'd love for him to be a character with a playstyle that way more distinct from other AP's.
With a better defined playstyle, he'd revolve around creating things. Not a "just gonna drop a turret here' playstyle, but something innovative and entertaining.
Instead of using a "FREE HP5" passive, something like an innate ability to collect the scraps of slain minions, to use as a resource for his inventions.
You get to collect scrap and actually build/invent stuff, instead of only dropping your 'already built' invention on the ground.
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Originally Posted by Ryan 'Morello' Scot - Lead Champion Designer
But what we really want to do - is create a good variety of champions, so that every player has a few to several champions that they are absolutely stoked about - instead of having like a whole slew of champions that people are not interested in and don't really buy into.
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Originally Posted by Perifear Thanks Morello, I was absolutely stoked about Zyra. I was. In the end she's just more of a generic burst mage - her plants are rather a minor bonus to her kit rather than the core of her playstyle - she isn't specifically, primarily about a 'Plant-ish' playstyle. I had expected and would've loved a more 'anticipating' and 'caring' playstyle. Plants grow, you have to keep them healthy or they die. They pop up immediately, they deal damage immediately, there's nothing really that captures the 'organic growing' process of plants - this is not how plants work. Plants do not pop up out of the blue and are not instantaneous. In our opinion Zyra could have been so much more awesome. People don't pick Zyra for a 'plant' playstyle to use, for a specific strategy, or for a specific mechanic - while they could have done this, they did not. She's picked because she's rather 'just another' good teamfighting burstmage. Her Q is a generic AoE nuke, her E is a generic snare (this made somewhat sense with it being vines), her R is a generic AoE nuke with knockup. Her abilities have almost nothing in common with nature, apart from the fact that Q pops up a plant, E does and R has a interaction with plants. It's a start and it is cool, but it makes Zyra far from a defined 'Nature Mage Playstyle'. Nothing really grows, it's just on-off. In our opinion, this is far from the ultimate nature mage she could've been, she's 'just a mage' with a nature theme instead of the ultimate Nature Mage that uses plants - we feel this impairs how fun she could be. Note that if they'd make her more about using plants this does not mean she wouldn't be good at teamfighting, like TF is still very useful in teamfights while his playstyle especially in the laningphase is about ganking with stacking his deck beforehand then using his ultimate. What I'm trying to say with this is that Riot has tied generic abilities to 'theming visuals' instead of the other way around: Coming up with essential logical theming aspects that could be converted to abilities. And the list can basically go on and on; I was stoked about Xerath - supposed to be the ultimate Long Range Siege Caster - in the end he still is kinda generic and doesn't have very superior range at all - most of his abilities get outranged by others. Kinda lame for a champion who is supposed to outrange anyone. |
Could you give more examples ?
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Originally Posted by ItemsGuy This'll be tricky for champions like Maokai, as people would probably take criticism towards the thematic unity of his kit very personally due to him being a very popular character, well-known for his jungling strength and effectiveness as a supportive tank... However, we like to think he could fit more of an 'angry tree/forest' playstyle. His current kit doesn't really fit up to this sort of idea. |
Why don't you think he does that currently ?
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Originally Posted by Perifear What exactly makes him significantally 'nature-ish' ? His sapling, indeed - as it can allow him to be more territorial like an angry tree would be, although it's most often used for burst damage or harass. The rest of his abilities however, from the looks of it Riot basically said: 'Alright, we've got the sapling - cool and unique there - what more could we give to his kit to make him fit the role of a support-tank (stepping away from living up to his theme)?' A knock-back CC ability: Not really 'nature/forrest'ish' at all. They just added some leaves/nature-particles to it, to fit. Is it good for his 'tank' role? Yes, but not for consistent theming. A Snare ability: More 'nature/forrest'ish' as it's basically 'rooting' someone in place, however the ability doesn't work in a specefic 'nature-ish' way, yet again it's more or less an excuse: 'Yeah somehow it does make sense to use a snare, let's just simply do that'. Is it good for his 'tank' role? Yes, but this sort of mobility is hardly something one would expect from a grumpy old stump. A damage mitigation Ult & Passive: Passive could be argued about, healing and building it up (could be seen as growing) is nature'ish, but it's not very specific or distinctive, yet again more or less an excuse: It makes a bit off sense, let's simply do that. His ult: I have no idea, it's just an ability they came up with an added nature particles to it - That's all. Are they good for his tank/support role? Yes, they allow him to keep himself and his team alive for longer, but it's not done in a way that's readable or even a little relevant to his character, theming, or kit - just the role Riot decided he should fill. |
'So basically you are trying to say that especially with Maokai, Riot tied random generic abilities/kit to theming visuals (adding nature particles in this case) instead of the other way around: Coming up with pure nature/forest stuff and then designing abilities around these nature/forest ideas.'
Exactly.
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Originally Posted by Perifear Brand is another example, we feel he could be way more awesome and have a way more specific and unique playstyle/aproach to the game. Fire spreads and burns. Does Brand do this ? Sure, to some certain degree he does - His passive, his ultimate spreads and encourages to burn people with his passive before ulting, aswell as his E spreading to targets if targets are ablaze. His Q & W however - It does not matter if these particles would look like lazers or shadow magic instead -why? Because the abilities do NOT specifically serve Brand as a unique 'fire-y' playstyle. Q is just a skillshot nuke - W an area of effect spell. As said: His Q - W are abilities tied to visuals. They do not specifically make sense - they do not contribute to Brand playing a 'fire'y/burning/spreading fire' playstyle like his passive, E and ult do. His Q and W are just generic abilities with fire particles. 'Oh guess we need to give him some CC and utility, sure let's just make his Q stun targets if they are set ablaze'. Fire doesn't stun, people. |
Brandon 'Ryze' Beck likes to think theme is very important however - and we most certainly agree.
Brandon 'Ryze' Beck - CEO/Co-Founder: 'Another thing that is really important to us is 'theme.' We really want characters to have a really central theme.'
'Well.. Maokai is themed around being a magical tree, read his lore. Not 'angry forest' theme.'
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Originally Posted by Perifear If you have to make excuses for the inclusion of an ability on a champion, it probably doesn't belong there What we are trying to say here is that it looks like Riot has designed a lot of kits or parts of kits out of the blue, hence the random stun in Brand's kit. 'We haven't done this before, this could be cool' and just added it to Brand's kit to give him some utility for the sake of giving him some utility. The lore behind such stuff just basically makes up for the 'flaw'/unlogical approach of theme & playstyle, therefore we don't really think it belongs there as we like to think Maokai could be more like playing an angry old tree and bringing his forest to do this with him, we think Heimerdinger could be more of an inventor and Brand could be more about constantly burning people alive (this would capture a playstyle where you'd have to keep people burning with your passive in order to maximize damage output) rather than using your abilities in a specefic combo and that you've done your job. |
And we won't - For now atleast. We want to see how things go:
How do you feel about the subject, do you think the champions we've mentioned could live up more to their theme, would you like to have them a more unique approach/playstyle ?
Why and why not ?
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Feedback time !
Thread One: We explain why more unique playstyles could be awesome and how they are not nessecarily OP - Just different.
If you wanted to leave feedback how more specific playstyles would be OP - Read that thread.
Thread Two: We explain why not only we would like these more unique/dedicated playstyles, we also suggest why we might need them.
If you wanted to leave feedback such as - 'Well I don't want these changes, we don't need them !' please read that thread.
Thread Three, this thread: We explain how more unique playstyles could be done by living up more to the original concept of the champion.
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Originally Posted by Perifear We would like to hear your opinion on the arguments we've come up with and what Riot has to say about that. Thank you for reading, please keep the discussion constructive ! If you are going to drop a comment here and just say 'No no but Brand already fire playstyle' or 'Zyra already plant playstyle' we will probably just ignore you, we've tried to dismantle these arguments in our thread. The only thing you would be doing is just observating/repeating the fact of how they work currently, which we are very well aware of: 'We are not saying the current kits of the champions are bad - we are saying they could live up more to their theme, creating a more appropriate character and a more dynamic, dedicated, and unique playstyle enriching the player's experience'. |
FeralPony: I've personally invited you as you have responded to my 'Complexity for the sake of complexity' thread a while ago back on EUW. It was a very bad thread as the title was misleading - complexity for the sake of complexity is bad game design, agreed. However in the actual post I tried to dismantle that, yet obviously due to the title the discussion was all about 'the complexity for the sake of complexity' argument.
You did read my thread however as you gave a very detailed post where I am still absolutely grateful for - though you never came back.
These threads and especially this one is a larger, more detailed, better written & constructed, clarify'ing my/our points way better than I could ever have imagined.
Hope to see you jump in again !
Thank you guys,
Perifear & ItemsGuy
So TLDR ?
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Originally Posted by Morphine
To give a quick tl;dr for readers, am I correct in saying that what you aim to achieve is a stronger sense of thematic cohesion for champions, spanning from playstyle to role to artwork?
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EDIT: FAQ LIVE - SEE BELOW !
EDIT2: REDESIGNS ARE LIVE, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CHECK THEM OUT, BENEATH THE FAQ !
