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@Morello - Balance the wrong way

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HenryF0rd ?? Senior Member
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04-13-2011

The following is a quote from Morello in a brand thread.

Quote:
Annie is still more deadly at 6 due to high bases, and high reliability. I think Annie is still one of the best disable casters in our game.

However, I think Annie could use some quality-of-life buffs to keep up with a little of the power creep. Might lower bases slightly and up ratios so she's not a brick late-game.
This is EXACTLY THE WRONG WAY TO BALANCE. It's the wrong way to look at the game, "power inflation" is not some kind of fundimental truth to game design that you just need to accept. This is your game, it should play the way you design it to.

I understand that Riot's business model relies on new content - and that new content needs to be compelling. But I'm concerned that the need to rapidly release new champions and a lack of care in crafting champion kit is leading to exactly this.

Slow down champion releases. Slow down patch adjustments. Look at Alistar, for so long Ali has been considered UP. A major rework was in the works for him for some time. Meanwhile, the players found out that roaming with him could dominate games. He's recently been played as a solid pick and huge asset to a team.

Annie is the gold seal of balance - a good, solid champion in the right comp. She has weaknesses: short range, low ratios. She has strengths: great burst, fairly reliable stun.

Be more mature with how you approach balance in your game.

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Lulwy ?? Senior Member
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04-13-2011

How are they being immature with their balance?

Power creep is just something that happens. You can technically avoid it altogether, but at some point you need to stop and think "Why should they pick this new character over the old one" and you give them some kind of gimmick that makes them more powerful in a niche situation.

Its kind of silly Annie loses all her bite late game anyway- she won't kill anyone but a straight glass cannon and just turns into a walking AoE stun. She used to be noticeably more powerful.

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HenryF0rd ?? Senior Member
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04-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulwy View Post
How are they being immature with their balance?

Power creep is just something that happens. You can technically avoid it altogether, but at some point you need to stop and think "Why should they pick this new character over the old one" and you give them some kind of gimmick that makes them more powerful in a niche situation.

Its kind of silly Annie loses all her bite late game anyway- she won't kill anyone but a straight glass cannon and just turns into a walking AoE stun. She used to be noticeably more powerful.
Power creep is NOT something that 'just happens' - it's something that Riot's business model encourages (they need to make content somehow compelling) - but it DOES NOT just happen.

That Annie has poor scaling is part of her design, it's fairly specific. She has a strong lane phase, and a sick early mid game - but begins to fall off late game. This was a design decision to make her have BOTH strengths AND weaknesses.

Power creep happens when the idea of having weaknesses starts to be considered 'silly'. This leads to champions having somewhat linear effects throughout the game - and it makes the game LESS DYNAMIC.

Having teams that excel late game while being weaker early game vs a team with a comp that has a strong early game but a weaker late game is an exciting push/pull game. Can you hold out early game despite being down two towers? That rush as your late game power starts to kick in, and you pull a great comeback. That's DYNAMIC gameplay and that sort of thing is GOOD FOR LoL.

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Laerbn ?? Senior Member
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04-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryF0rd View Post
Power creep is NOT something that 'just happens' - it's something that Riot's business model encourages (they need to make content somehow compelling) - but it DOES NOT just happen.

That Annie has poor scaling is part of her design, it's fairly specific. She has a strong lane phase, and a sick early mid game - but begins to fall off late game. This was a design decision to make her have BOTH strengths AND weaknesses.

Power creep happens when the idea of having weaknesses starts to be considered 'silly'. This leads to champions having somewhat linear effects throughout the game - and it makes the game LESS DYNAMIC.

Having teams that excel late game while being weaker early game vs a team with a comp that has a strong early game but a weaker late game is an exciting push/pull game. Can you hold out early game despite being down two towers? That rush as your late game power starts to kick in, and you pull a great comeback. That's DYNAMIC gameplay and that sort of thing is GOOD FOR LoL.
Agreed. The only reason power creep exists here is to sell their new champions that don't bring much of anything new to the table.

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Lulwy ?? Senior Member
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04-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryF0rd View Post
Power creep is NOT something that 'just happens' - it's something that Riot's business model encourages (they need to make content somehow compelling) - but it DOES NOT just happen.

That Annie has poor scaling is part of her design, it's fairly specific. She has a strong lane phase, and a sick early mid game - but begins to fall off late game. This was a design decision to make her have BOTH strengths AND weaknesses.

Power creep happens when the idea of having weaknesses starts to be considered 'silly'. This leads to champions having somewhat linear effects throughout the game - and it makes the game LESS DYNAMIC.

Having teams that excel late game while being weaker early game vs a team with a comp that has a strong early game but a weaker late game is an exciting push/pull game. Can you hold out early game despite being down two towers? That rush as your late game power starts to kick in, and you pull a great comeback. That's DYNAMIC gameplay and that sort of thing is GOOD FOR LoL.
But every game has power creep. It happens not because of business model, but because they try to make champions different from each other. Eventually you're just going to put in some sort of hook that makes a champion more powerful in the eyes of the players, even if the old champions have better situational strength.

If I want burst that transitions into okayish somewhat sustainable damage with AoE stuns like Annie, I'm going to pick Annie (okay, maybe Kennen, but Annie is more consistent). Annie still has her niche, but its really shrunk down with the advent of better bursters (LeBlanc, arguably Brand) and more tankiness (as a general concept). Annie has lost her good early game because teams only carry one or two people at max that she's able to flex that early game on, with the rest of the team too tough.

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HenryF0rd ?? Senior Member
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04-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laerbn View Post
Agreed. The only reason power creep exists here is to sell their new champions that don't bring much of anything new to the table.
To be clear, I don't begrudge Riot making money. They're a business and for all its flaws LoL is a great game.

But the business model does ENCOURAGE power creep - and a lot of the future of LoL depends on how guys like Morello deal with that. Do you try to take a long term approach and think about what's really GOOD FOR THE GAME or do you take a short term approach that encourages power creep and less dynammic gameplay for a brief burst of dollars for the new op champion?

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HenryF0rd ?? Senior Member
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04-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulwy View Post
But every game has power creep. It happens not because of business model, but because they try to make champions different from each other. Eventually you're just going to put in some sort of hook that makes a champion more powerful in the eyes of the players, even if the old champions have better situational strength.

If I want burst that transitions into okayish somewhat sustainable damage with AoE stuns like Annie, I'm going to pick Annie (okay, maybe Kennen, but Annie is more consistent). Annie still has her niche, but its really shrunk down with the advent of better bursters (LeBlanc, arguably Brand) and more tankiness (as a general concept). Annie has lost her good early game because teams only carry one or two people at max that she's able to flex that early game on, with the rest of the team too tough.
I agree with your second paragraph dude, Annie's nitch has shrunk because of "better bursters" and "more tankiness" - what I'm saying is that Morello, the guy in charge of champion balance should not just shrug and accept it.

It's a challenge to build new, compelling content and NOT encourage power creep. A lot of games suffer from power creep, so it can't be easy to design a game that doesn't suffer from this.

But what separates good games from great games is that some teams get it right. They learn to introduce new content while still maintaining Strengths AND Weaknesses. The quote from Morello demonstrates a lack of understanding here. That the idea of having both Strengths AND Weaknesses in a champion should be 'fixed' instead of encouraged.

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Falleth ?? Senior Member
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04-13-2011

And how about you shut up and let them do the job, which they are doing pretty well recently due to some high elo players on their team?

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Frank the Golem ?? Senior Member
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04-13-2011

"I'm not a forum QQer, but I'm here to QQ on the forum."

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Morello Morello's Avatar ?? Lead Content Designer
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1 of 2 Riot Posts
04-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulwy View Post
But every game has power creep. It happens not because of business model, but because they try to make champions different from each other. Eventually you're just going to put in some sort of hook that makes a champion more powerful in the eyes of the players, even if the old champions have better situational strength.

If I want burst that transitions into okayish somewhat sustainable damage with AoE stuns like Annie, I'm going to pick Annie (okay, maybe Kennen, but Annie is more consistent). Annie still has her niche, but its really shrunk down with the advent of better bursters (LeBlanc, arguably Brand) and more tankiness (as a general concept). Annie has lost her good early game because teams only carry one or two people at max that she's able to flex that early game on, with the rest of the team too tough.
This is a good explanation. Power Creep is inevitable, and I'd challenge this statement by asking for an example of a regularly updated game that has zero power creep. There's also power adjustments as players improve.

We actively fight against power creep with being liberal on nerfing, and we still have it. If we never nerfed, or rarely? That would be much more significant power creep.

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