Originally Posted by LimitlessChaos
The question I have is, what is the biggest problem these types of champions really face?
That sounds like something Xypherous would ask.
Caster/Fighters and Caster/Assassins like Renekton and Pantheon have nothing that compliments their champions as while units. The Bloodthirstier gives a carry 100 AD and 20% lifesteal, while it only really gives 100 AD to them. That's not to say the lifesteal doesn't exist, but balancing them as "they're going to right-click things anyway if they're in melee range, and for good damage" is just plain false.
That particular idea is one that bothers me the most.
Have you ever purchased Frozen Mallet on a champion that just couldn't apply the slow fast enough? Probably once or twice, I imagine. You may even remember how it felt to have such a heavy investment into a utility come crashing down as counter-cc, movement abilities and tenacity chopped away at your very ability to even use the item you spent so much gold on the way it's supposed to be.
That's like playing Pantheon or Renekton and buying any
item. You just won't get enough out of things that grant damage. You just won't get enough out of things that grant defense. Every other champion will face you with better innate advantages when shopping.
Since Pantheon's rework
, I still never see him played. His gameplay shifted from "max Q to fight, max E to burst, W will become a visible stun at max rank and R will take you places far away" to "max E or you're a loser, why even put more than 1 point in W, ever, get Q just because W sucks so much, and dunk idiots that sit at your turret and have no escape plan as you R". Selling point: crazy AD scaling on Heartseeker Strike, jumpstun utility, and low cooldown ranged poke. Major flaws: life steal is just not worth it and if you don't build some kind of defense you are guaranteed to die. Where others may have all the power of fast attacks or something that innately benefits basic attacks at all times (Irelia, Volibear, Udyr, Riven, Darius, etc, etc, etc, I hope you see where this is going), Pantheon just gets a critical strike when his target is already dead and too stupid to remember Pantheon can do that.
Since Renekton's most-lamented nerf
, I barely ever see him played. He went from being able to jungle and fight with lots of sustain on a decent cooldown in a tight radius around himself to being able to either deal damage or die according to what he built, because good luck living long enough to see the next round of spells. This, coming from someone who constantly pushes for 40% CDR with runes, masteries, and boots alone. His ability kit isn't really bad, it's just very unaccommodating when you are trying to gain the most from abilities. Unlike Pantheon, Renekton actually has some
form of healing without spell vamp, but if you were smart enough to position correctly and build the right items, your effort is rewarded with a capped heal and a swift kick in the ass. "Good job, too bad you lost some invisible amount of healing that you'll never know about." Before the Hextech Gunblade nerf, Renekton could be built as the gross exaggeration of "Glass Cannon Sustain" with several of them. Before you go and think, "Multiple Gunblades? What are you, trolling?" imagine the staying power of Renekton in battle with 100% spell vamp. That literally WAS me. I've seen Cull the Meek heal over 1000 on three minions alone. I've ran about in team fights with and without minions and dealt so much magic damage in an area that I could see my health going up every second. +22 +22 +22 +22 +22...
This was the farthest possible stretch of, "Can be blown to pieces but will fight through challengers who failed to use lethal burst damage," and it wasn't broken at all. It literally balanced itself, no mater how you looked at it.
When the Gunblade nerf
came, I was heartbroken and blamed Riot for nerfing an item based on a champion based on the idea that high amounts of hard stats were necessary to compete with other champions (the old Hybrid philosophy)
. Since then, no other items have been made to replicate this type of Caster/Fighter which mirrors RADCs with life steal in strengths and weaknesses. I still normally HGB for the slow on both Pantheon and Renekton while telling myself it's worth it for the subpar AD and weak spell vamp which only have the smallest effects in their effective AE ratio (1/3 of spell vamp applies to damage dealt by spells that can hit multiple targets, excluding Death Lotus).
So AP Casters can get spell vamp and gain health from their main source of damage (abilities), DPS/Fighters and RADCs can get life steal and gain health from their main source of damage (basic attacks), and actual hybrid champions in the game already get CRAZY INSANE bonus stats or effects (Jax, Akali, Old Kayle
), but AD Caster/Fighters can either stack health or go cry in a corner. Fun fact: Hecarim is the only example of a successful AD Caster/Fighter because he gets tremendous sustain from Spirit of Dead (up to 30% true spell vamp
, ignoring the built-in limit of spell vamp on AE abilities, and even gaining life based on damage that is not his own
Originally Posted by Xypherous
An issue with scaling off of the opponent's statistics on an item that also gives defensive statistics is that you aren't encourage to build any offensive statistics on your part.
In the end, they take 20 seconds to kill you going full AP, and yet you take 5 seconds to kill them going full defense. There's a fundamental issue there. If you are going to punish the enemy for stacking offensive statistics, the statistics you should be getting should be almost purely offensive as well.
In a general sense, Hecarim just gains power through his teammates instead of only though himself. He gains so much power from his teammates, however, that the "Trinity Force Tank" build is incredibly popular.
Why actually care when you can just walk into battle and feed off of the innate power of all of the damage abilities your team has combined.