There were always be counters. A good Kayle can beat a good Darius, for instance. But a good Kayle would lose to good (most the rest up there).

I don't know about Kayle, because her ranged attack has slightly less range than Darius' pull. I was thinking longer ranged harass such as Elise's spider nuke.

Well there aren't many rock/paper/scissors situation except maybe the Olaf beating Nasus beating KhaZix beating Olaf situation. From what I've seen, the ladder (top from bottom) is accurate in the sense that the higher your champion is, the better are your chances (which is a safer way of saying you have no chance in hell of winning against a higher tier).

What I'm trying to say is that more often than not, when champion A beats champion B, it's very rare for champion B to be able to beat champion C which beats champion A. Yeah, this sentence is confusing. It's like a top to bottom ladder, and not like a we-all-have-a-chance-against-each-other kind of ladder.

As for Darius, I see him as a high risk high reward kind of champion. I could easily see a Caitlyn with a frozen mallet simply out ranging Darius and being able to win by not getting pulled ever, but all it takes for Darius to completely steamroll the game is one nicely timed pull and then bam there goes your pride. But acknowledging that everyone does mistakes, I guess it's safe to say that Darius CAN beat everything under his tier even though that, on paper, a high-range champion theoretically never gets pulled.

On paper, that statement is very accurate.

However I've seen very little game where Darius lost to a low tier character. Well, in fact, I've seen a very low amount of good Kayle players

how is pantheon not anywhere in this discussion?

Pantheon can't really do anything in 1v1 fights
Start with cloth + chain for + 63 armor and 11 pots and just farm and laugh while he does nothing

moved kha to tier 3

Is LeBlanc not higher because she falls off so much quicker in Proving Grounds? Anivia also seems like she'd do well.

I did a few of these.

1) Master Yi vs Urgot - Urgot won, massively.


2) Karthus vs Ziggs - Ziggs by a mile


3) Cho'Gath vs Rumble - Rumble won, but it was close. If Cho had been using his scream more, he probably would have won since Silence shuts down Rumble hard.


4) Anivia vs Kog'Maw - Kog'Maw solidly won.



5) Malphite vs Skarner - Skarner did very well at the beginning, but Malphite managed to make a devastating comeback and win.


6) Janna vs Katarina - Janna absolutely destroyed Katarina. Not even remotely close.

Not to mention that pantheon is a burst AD. Even if you give away 1 to 3 kills in the early game, you can still get armor and HP, then just show up with a sanguine blade and completely destroy him later in the game. That's the issue with burst.
There are several issues about AP's in this map. The most obvious one is their sustain. On any AD, you can get 1 or several vamp scepters and every single auto-attack is going to get them 15hp life minimum that scales with level and ad items but as for AP's, you need to get a very expensive item and actually cast spells to get hp back. So sure, you might have better damage trading abilities, but as soon as the exchange is over, AD can just hit minions a bunch of times and they're back to full.

Another powerful drawback is that not only AP's get countered by magic resist, but they also do by an opponent just stacking health. A lot of those high tier champions can afford to get the new Warmogs (with the FON passive) with the slightest of sustain and just completely ignore you. The reason APs are getting countered by mr is because all their damaging moves have cooldowns, which isnt the case for ADs against someone stacking armor. ADs have tools against that, like last whisper and black cleaver, but when you're taking an AP that has all it's nuking aiblities on a 5 second cooldown, you're not going to have a good time!

A third drawback would be the inability to pressure buildings. You have no idea how many games I've won by starting bad, losing my inhib, and then just farming my way back up while still being able to shop against an opponent who couldnt poke the towers fast enough (or would lose an insane amount of hp doing so). So even if you're winning the game now, actually WINNING the game as in destroying their nexus is a completely different task. Not to mention that ADs scale way better with items than you do.

Now the cool part about AP is that the better you are at your champion, the better it will do. Now I know this is a "duh" moment for you, but it's more true for APs since that if you want to, you may choose to never engage the enemy while keeping up the trades with them. If you start off very good, you can steamroll the game very easily, but if you die early / allow your opponent to farm, this is going to end badly for you.

Seems I forgot a point... Whatever...

edit: OH YEAH... I'm not saying all APs are bad and you should feel bad for playing them, my point is that if you do play an AP, you have to consider that, as soon as the game starts, you're already behind. So you have to play exceptionally well, build the right items and play aggressive (to make them miss minion kills) to eventually steamroll and win.
It's cool that you took the time to complete these. Did you get a chance to test those champions against champions already in the tier list?

How are you building Janna?