Originally Posted by Bilun

Well first off I do agree Jax is OP in 3v3. My entire balance assessment as assuming the default game type of 5v5. 3v3 has all sorts of additional balance problems.
Sorry, but if Jax 1v5ed you he either

A). had such a huge number of kills you deserved to lose anyway

or

B). your team was extremely uncoodinated

or

C). you're probably low ELO and weren't playing very well
You realize Trynd is widely regarded as one of the weakest champions in the game; that you're citing him as a 1v5 powerplayer implies option C listed above is likely the case.

Originally Posted by Brandavi

Jax really is the best melee DPS. Shen really is the best Tank. Janna really is the best mage. Ezreal is the best ranged DPS, yes Ezreal NOT Ashe. Soraka really is the best support.

Being the best is not analogous to being over-powered. Should the "Tier 5-6"/"overshadowed" champs be buffed? Not my concern. I play Jax, Sion, and Veigar. I do best with Sion, second best with Jax, and usually terrible with Veigar.

I would love to see Veigar get a buff, but I don't really think he needs one.

Back to the topic; Jax is easily countered. You can use mages, as earlier posters have suggested, you can use Ezreal, TF, Ashe, Teemo, or Twitch. Ranged DPS make great Jax-Counters, especially if your ranged DPS-er has a slow.

Originally Posted by Bilun

Well first off I do agree Jax is OP in 3v3. My entire balance assessment as assuming the default game type of 5v5. 3v3 has all sorts of additional balance problems.
Sorry, but if Jax 1v5ed you he either

A). had such a huge number of kills you deserved to lose anyway

or

B). your team was extremely uncoodinated

or

C). you're probably low ELO and weren't playing very well
You realize Trynd is widely regarded as one of the weakest champions in the game; that you're citing him as a 1v5 powerplayer implies option C listed above is likely the case.
He has a gunblade and a rageblade and you don't have the items between your team to burst him down? That's about 6k worth of items, 7.5k with ninja tabi. For that money he gains an extra 440 health(25% increase in help), combined with say 30% dodge thats essentially an extra 62.5% health vs physical and 30% vs magical damage.

With 5 people you have 5 champions worth of damage 500% damage. Even if he's fed and deals mroe damage then an individual, 5 of you will exceed his damage output by far more then 62.5%.

1v5 jax is mostly a myth perpetrated by bad/uncoordinated players. a feed jax 1v2 or 1v3ing a disorganized team maybe, but if you get 1v5ed by a jax you have no one but yousefl to blame



He doesn't require it. You just need it to be able to burst him down within the length of a CC with 2-3 people.

If your organized and your team has comprable kills to the enemy team, the combined damage output of 3-4 champions will far outstrip the mitigation given by his defenses.
Anecdotal evidence really fails to sway me. That said i would agree that jax has a pretty flat learning curve. He's extremely potent and doesn't require alot of practice to play well. This is why he dominates the low ELO . I'm not saying he's weak in other brackets; he's a top tier champion pretty much all throughout, but he only really reaches the level of domination I consider OP int he low ELO brackets.
again, anecdotal evidence. fromt he first part of your story though you sounded pretty fed. And being that the two enemies engaged you one at a time, rather then together, a fed melee carry beating them doesn't soundout of line(especially as they are both physical DPS, jax's specialty.

Though as stated above I agree Jax's stun should only be available after dodging a champion.


Well first off I do agree that Counterstrike should only proc when jax dodges a champion; I do find it kind of silly that your own minions are only a liability.

Again though, it sounds like you're trying to 1v1 jax; which just isn't a good idea unless you're an equally fed faceroll caster.
While I could see sword of the divine benefiting from an overhaul, this sort of thing seems a bit extreme. One 2000 gold item should not utterly negate some element of an opponent's character cost-free. Similar effects include(as you cited) executioners calling and also oracle elixers for stealth. The former constitutes a partial reduction(not complete) and the latter carries the risk of loss on death.

Personally I've long thought that sword of the divine should have it's active replaced with a unique passive that reduces the dodge chance/miss chance of all of your attacks by 1/3(33% of base value).
And why specifically should dodge be treated differently then every other % damage reduction in the game? Does amour only reduce 1 attack per second? does MR?

Like it or not, by default if you have a melee focused team, dodge is a counter to your primary focus; you should be at something of a disadvantage. This is why it's beneficial to have a balanced team composition.
This seems reasonable to me. But it's rather niche and really changes nothing besides the removal of dodging shaco crits. and perhaps 1 attack for twitch/teemo.

Originally Posted by Bilun

Personally I've long thought that sword of the divine should have it's active replaced with a unique passive that reduces the dodge chance/miss chance of all of your attacks by 1/3(33% of base value).
And why specifically should dodge be treated differently then every other % damage reduction in the game? Does amour only reduce 1 attack per second? does MR?

Like it or not, by default if you have a melee focused team, dodge is a counter to your primary focus; you should be at something of a disadvantage. This is why it's beneficial to have a balanced team composition.
This seems reasonable to me. But it's rather niche and really changes nothing besides the removal of dodging shaco crits. and perhaps 1 attack for twitch/teemo.

Originally Posted by kilikem

you sit here and point out many thing...some i agree with and some i dont agree with, BUT, you say things saying like that u could probably take him down if u have "TEAMWORK" well.....think about it the other way around why dont u? what if the jax and his team have teamwork? then the champion that no1 can 1v1....has backup.....so while he is plowing u down u may be getting cc'ed and nuked by ryze.....or ulted by nunu....or any of the other vast scenarios that could happen...THEN what r u to do? nunu ults you, then you would be forced to interupt and attack nunu....leaving jax to pound on u....if u try to run he will pound on u anyways, nunu can just stop his ult bloodboil jax and slow u down so u cant run.....what if a situation like that happened? or say ur ganna go 2v1 jax and ur like YEA WE GOT HIM THIS TIME!!! then BAM an ashe arrow flys out and smacks u...now ur stunned and slowed and jax can continue to pound on u....so PLEASE!!!!!!!!!! by any means....tell me what you would do then......

Originally Posted by Wretch

The reason Dodge should be treated differently than armor or magic resist, is because its inherently different. If you dodge an attack, you avoid the damage entirely. With armor and magic resist, you reduce part of the damage that is dealt.

Totally ignoring damage is always superior to reducing damage, especially when its so easy for Jax to stack dodge. A jax can reach 30% + dodge with just a ninja tabi, which is the cheapest route you can go when buying boots.

Originally Posted by SHAZAMBAM

hmm I guess ur right. Also did you say something about on hit effects like tf's pick a card thing, my first fight against jax as Tf wasnt pretty

Originally Posted by Bilun

Except that 1v1 potency is not directly proportional to contribution in team fights. While jax is hands down a better 1v1 champion then fiddlesticks for example, fiddlesticks will contribute more to group fights if played well.


In my experience, jax becomes less of a factor the larger the magnitude of the fight. He's a god 1v1, huge 2v2, waning in potency by 3v3, and so forth. His abilities are just better suited to dealing with a single enemy and don't start doing much more when multiple allies/enemies are present.


actually statistically speaking, there is absolutely no difference between taking 0 damahe 30% of the time and taking 70% damage 100% of the time.

It is however superior in one regard though: dodge also mitigates on hit effects even if they aren't physical damage.

That said, I think the itemization weight on dodge is appropriate.


Of the items you named, only last whisper & void staff are designed to counter high armour/MR enemies; the rest deal static MR/armour reductions whicha re more effective against low armour enemies then tanks.

Likewise sword of the divine falls into the category of beign designed to be effective against high dodge enemies.

As said above, I'd approve of sword of the divine getting a bit of an upgrade. I merely say that your expectation of a single 2k gold item to be a perfect counter which completely negates an opponent's defense is expecting a bit much.