Originally Posted by Loïc

So I was going to post something in another thread, but it got closed before I managed to. It was essentially about how the OP was disappointed that Sejuani doesn't look strong and wears (relatively) little clothing. But I felt like this was a point worth making, and so I'm just going to put it out there.

People were responding with comments like, "You're expecting realism out of a fantasy game?" and generally responded very negatively (which I found completely baffling), but in general I think they were missing the point the OP was trying to make. It's not that it's unrealistic that she's so small. Tryndamere really couldn't swing that sword with one hand like he does realistically. The problem is that this is yet another female champ that has the exact same body type as practically every other (adult human) female champ, that body type being thin, frail, and busty. The skimpy clothes is just gravy to this insult, but seeing as she's a barbarian-type lady and riding a giant boar I think we can let that one go.

Now, I like Sejuani's design, from what I've seen. She's got a unique weapon among the champs (keeping in line with one of my favorite features of LoL, that almost no champions share the same weapon), she looks good, she's got an awesome boar mount (also awesome and distinct in it's own way from the other champs). But I, similarly to the person who posted that other thread, think that she should look strong, and that's a very reasonable thing to want. She must be a strong lady to lift her flail and shield, or even ride her mount. But she doesn't look it. None of the female champs look particularly strong. But the male champs are not only more varied, but their body types support their character. Strong warrior champs are big. Makes sense, right? Casters tend to be thinner. There's a lot of variety among the male champs in terms of body type. But all the female champs are just lingerie models, regardless of the size of their weapon or the weight of their armor (I'm looking at you and your plate mail heels, Leona).

This is a problem with most games, and while I love League of Legends, they're very guilty of falling into this trend. Men are varied and appropriately proportioned, women are thin and busting out of their tops regardless of who they are or what they do. I really wish Riot would change this. Their designs are fun and interesting and varied (and only seem to get better and better, go Riot!), and it's completely within their power to change this particular aspect of character design, but they never seem to. It's hugely disappointing, and there's really no need for it.

These popped up on Kotaku just recently, and while they're not written for the same reason I'm commenting on this, they're about the same issue, and definitely worth a read.

http://kotaku.com/5868595/nerds-and-male-privilege
http://kotaku.com/5873885/nerds-and-male-privilege-part-2-deconstructing-the-arguments

Originally Posted by IronStylus

I've yet to have time to read those articles but I shall do so when I get the chance.

Also.. don't make me get into how Leona's heels actually are a paragon of function and classy design!

Anywhoozle, funny thing is, when I was doing a bit of work on Sejuani, we made an effort to make sure she didn't look dainty. In the art spotlight you're looking at a very action-y pose which may make her diminish because that boar is just so ready to throttle you.

That being said, yes, often in the video game industry, and the entertainment industry, there is a "standardization" of female form. I'm as guilty of it as any other artist when designing. Leona is a tall curvy lady which in my mind is "idealized". We're artists, we like "ideal" and sometimes default to it. (REMEMBER! I'm keeping "Ideal" in QUOTES! "Ideal" is not an "Ideal" term for what I'm "Ideally" trying to explain) That isn't to say that our lexicon is or should be limited to a particular scope, but let's be honest, a lot of natural human tendency which is often hardwired into us makes us gravitate towards particular biological attributes. I'm not trying to defend that gravitation, but I am saying that we are many times inexorably drawn to it... no art pun intended.

Let's also consider something. Readability. In the game, the characters are fairly small, nyez? So, we do often I believe have to make sure we're making sure to make sure that the figure is readable as a girl or guy. How do we do this? Well, proportion, accentuation, exaggeration, etc. Want the feminine form to read in a game? Welp, guess what, it might have to be a bit more famine and/or stylized than usual to read at the proper distance and keep readable when moving. That's just making sure we cover the basics of simple silhouette recognition. If we make her too broad, you might mistake Sejuani for a male, that'd be, ya know, not what we want.

Now, that said, and I may be at bit too full of microwave mashed potatoes at this point, but I do have certain issues with certain champs and their body types. I do flinch here and there when I consider the logistics that certain clothing might entail. However, as an artist, as a gamer, I'm looking for something that's rewarding to my eye. Sometimes that might be a dynamic silhouette, sometimes maybe the nuanced movement of a character, possibly the hardwired biological aspect, or any other pleasing imagery. As a gamer and as an artist, I want a visual reward. That's a lot of what gaming is and art for that matter. Engagement -> Reward.

Particularly though, at least speaking for myself, I also want to know how that armor or lack thereof functions! But, what is the trade off? Do I think Sejuani might need to make a trip to Sports Chalet and get some heavy winter gear? Possibly.. BUT! I also want her to be wearing something more interesting than a Columbia snowboarding jacket and I also want her to read clearly when I play her. That's a whole lot in the equation.

There's trade-offs to everything, and sometimes we don't even know those trade-offs on a conscious level. If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out. We then have problems with whether we could tell her gender or not. The boar (Let's take get a betting game going to see if you can guess the boar's name) might indicate, given another armor or outfit situation, that she's a guy. Thickening her up, while addressing how a chick could wield such a weapon comes at a risk of her looking like a male also. We wanted her to be fit and vicious. Adding particular types of clothing, mass, armor, etc might detract from that... also! You haven't seen all her skins yet! Maybe you'll find something cool in there! =D

Personally? I like the more "reasonably" clad gals, but hey, that's why I gravitate towards champs like Leona. But heck, while Sejuani has her own visual style, and unique challenges, I am not opposed to her being taken in the direction she has been. I think our goal is to provide a rewarding experience, sometimes we have to suspend our otherwise pesky disbelief and roll with it. Will we push limits in the future? Yes. Will we also work within pre-established motifs, structures, archetypes and the tendencies for the unconscious mind to latch onto particular tropes as long as we find the situation appropriate? Yes.

Regardless, I'm not sure if this is all making any sense. I'm pretty tired. Also, ya know. Mashed potatoes. Either way, I enjoy these discussions and I'd like to keep having them. There's a lot we go through over here when we design champs artistically and believe me, nothing you're saying hasn't been discussed or not thought over. In the end, we're having fun, and we hope you are too!

Originally Posted by davin

I feel pretty strongly about this and am rather happy that our game has a good number of female characters who break out of traditional "male gaze mold" (Karma, Poppy, Leona, Tristana, Riven, and Shyvana are pretty good examples). Leona is my favorite example of this, as she's a strong female character who really looks like she's meant for battle.

Originally Posted by IronStylus

Excellent points!

Originally Posted by bernkastar

I see where you are coming from, but can we PLEASE have a handsome (not overly muscular or aged), skin revealing, male young adult with some biologically gravitation characteristics? I want some male love in this department of matter.

I don't care too much about Riot idealizing female bodies for fan service, but I'm concerned that there's none in terms of males. I know the vast majority of players are straight males, but just ONE would suffice.

Or even a new, attractive Ezreal skin with a different haircut.

Originally Posted by General Farsight

I understand your point, and I agree with it to some extent. However, I fear a lot of people simply complain about their appearance and either forget or simply ignore their backstories and personalities. When I play with Caitlyn, Janna, Vayne or whatever other female character, just by hearing their quotes it's noticeable that they aren't simply eyecandy. The way they dress should not be that important.

Once again this does not seem to be a problem with male characters, since Tryndamere can go around shirtless without anyone complaining. Everyone knows that he is a badass barbarian king. Why can't the female characters receive a similar treatment? Why must they be simply defined by what they wear?