Originally Posted by iainB85

Absolutely, it's not as simple as just increasing the amount of gold the jungle is worth, as that would just give more incentive for lanes to steal it.

It has to be done more subtly, such as a change to smite, or some itemization that increases experience / gold gain for junglers, but wouldn't further increase the value of a lane stealing the camps.

Originally Posted by PapaShongo53

This would help the support gp/10 jungler just as much as the DPS jungler, still making them the better choice. You need something that helps the gankers more than the supporters if you want to even this out.

Originally Posted by Vuther

Well, the gankers can be the supporters as well. Shen and Maokai were used as junglers, for example.

Originally Posted by Loveovertime

umm I disagree, I carry games with mumu and skarner from the jungle in the 1800's all the ****ing time
and I see many others do it against me.

This thread is just off, surprised how many up votes it has received zzz

Originally Posted by iainB85

Would love a red post in this thread, even if it's "we're happy with the jungle now" just to see if they agree/disagree.

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Still hoping for some red input on this. I was always okay with giving Blue and Red up to the AP/AD carries lategame. Then mid started expecting every Blue after the first one. Okay... I can understand the need for this, I guess. I'll just retire some of the more mana-intensive junglers and build some mana/mana regen on the rest. I'll deal with the loss of xp by invading more.
Then the same mid started taking Wraiths. Not just occasionally, but all the time. That's by far the easiest camp to clear from a time/damage/reward perspective, and it keeps me centralized and not too far from any lane to help. Now it's always gone. Fine. I'll make sure to keep their Wraiths warded and just take those. What's that? Their mid is taking their Wraiths too? Well, **** me. Then mids realized that they could clear the big Wraith and leave the small ones up if they only had a small window between waves. I guess I'm expected to clear that 15g up so they can get the big one next time? Right.
Then tops started roaming more. Wolves and Golems became more scarce. Not a big deal (as it's not as constant as mid and their Wraiths), but it's adding to the pressure. On top of that, bottom lane took a page from their book and starting clearing their own set of Golems and Wolves more regularly. Well, ****. I guess I can just shove their lanes when they shop... NOPE! Holy hell, they're screaming bloody murder at me. Well, back into the empty jungle again I guess.
Finally, ADs have begun expecting early Red buffs. Not the first or the second, but I've had them want the third onward before, and it's getting more common every day.

So what does this leave me with? The first Blue, and the first 2-3 Reds. The first Wraiths, and whatever I can grab when the AP's distracted or has left leftovers (I've had mids actually come over when I'm clearing Wraiths and nuke the big one mid-kill. No explanation. No apology. Nothing). Wolves and Golems are more frequent, but they're also the worst camps in terms of damage, time, and distance. Even then, they're getting cleared by laners more frequently. Whatever I can get by invading (though if it's a buff, one of the laners wants it), though most of their jungle is as picked over as my own.

Beyond that? Whatever kills or assists I can secure in the lanes. Not solo, as I'm generally behind in levels and always behind in gold, but in 2v1 and 3v2 situations. I build 1-3 Gp10 items every game just to survive. I've started playing junglers who can only use 1 Gp10 less often. I buy wards for midlanes who refuse to as they clear my Wraiths over and over. I buy wards for toplane, enemy jungle and Dragon. I'm considering switching my MS Quints over to Gp10. What's the point in moving around fast when there are so few camps to clear? Gold is what I'm starving for. That, and levels. XP masteries? Looking tempting. My jungle page looks just a little more like my support page every day. Games where I'm the same level as our support are becoming more common. I run into an enemy mid or toplane in my jungle and I have to ping them and run like hell until my laners stop farming long enough to come help. They've got 3 levels on me and twice as much gold, no way I'm tangling with them alone.

Somehow, somewhere along the way, I've become a second-tier citizen. I get the scraps laners deem too worthless for their own time. I get threatened with reports and rage-quits when I touch their lane farm. I rely on Gp10 income just to scrape by. Ward purchases are split 45% jungle, 45% support, 10% everyone else. When I gank for a lane and get the killing blow, they complain that I didn't let them have the gold. If I ignore their complaints and play to my own strengths, or argue that I need a specific camp, they rage and sometimes afk, and actually believe themselves justified. When I invade in the hope that somehow their jungle is less barren than my own, if I get caught and killed I'm harassed for feeding.

...

Man, what happened to us?