Originally Posted by Kchaosrei

The new jungle is a nightmare. Why jungle when i can just go sit in the enemy jungle and wait for him to come around the corner extreamly hurt? And then take his buff and get first blood?

Tank jungle is impossible to do now. Any brusier can walk in and mop him up.

while i understand that you want to make it harder for lanes ot be ganked. you are going to cause junglers to gank each other more. Welcome to the new jungle where u get farmed not the creeps.

Originally Posted by Statikk

I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.

Originally Posted by Statikk

I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.

Originally Posted by Statikk

I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.

Originally Posted by Statikk

I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.

Originally Posted by Blazing Pascal

I think the "problem" we are having. is that you guys came out and said multiple times that jungle gold would be increased... it is even stated on the video released with the patch, but you obviously made the jungle harder, and early gold is less when you factor in time/difficulty.

I am fine with the jungle being harder, and ganks being harder (since we have an item that is equivalent to nothing vs champs)... I actually agree with that change. Just keep your word and increase the jungle gold if we are supposed to farm instead of get early kills/assists now.

Originally Posted by Ethri

If you take into consideration that lane minion kills are worth less now... jungle gold did increase in comparison to lane gold.

Originally Posted by KatfishGumbo

am I the only one that remembers after the last jungle changes the issues (that turned out to be non-issues) for days thereafter. How can anyone post these kind of judgments before things have been allowed to settle down?

Originally Posted by Statikk

I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.

Originally Posted by Ethri

If you take into consideration that lane minion kills are worth less now... jungle gold did increase in comparison to lane gold.