So, as most of you know, the jungle monsters have been changed, and made more beefy. Now, to make up for the increased amount of damage/health needed to take them, they were supposed to yield greater income. Here is the problem, the gold increase doesn't actually take effect until almost eleven minutes into the game. Now as most junglers recognize, this doesn't help junglers almost at all. This is heavily due to the fact, that at eleven minutes, the jungle, is no longer the jungler's, but more of everyone's. No competent jungler, will be farming jungle anywhere past eleven minutes under most circumstances.

If I remember reading correctly, the natural gold gained over time on SR is being increased, but hasn't actually been added yet to the PTR (or its bugged). So you're not actually seeing a true income for junglers just yet.

Passive Gold generation has been increased. Early itemization is better early so we don't have to go straight into Gp5s. Wraiths have been changed so mids have to take more time to do them, delaying their time to get to lane meaning they will have to be stronger before they can start wraiths or risk losing CS trying to kill them.

I've been around since season one, and all I ask, is that the jungler have the ability to do 2 things. Make a decent amount of money, which we still can't, and two, not be forced to buy items. When wriggles was introduced, it became a "forced" buy. And with the price increase on vamp scepter, machete is also now a "forced" buy.

Machete is a forced buy, I agree. But it is a starting item and builds into 4 different mid to late game items that are decent. Some worse then others, but we aren't discussing that. I'm sure paying 300g at the beginning of the game isn't going to ruin your fun late game?

Machete's variety of build paths makes it an acceptable forced buy, imo. I'd rather not have to be forced into it, but it is pretty much the least evil that a forced buy could be.

I do agree that the increased jungle gold should kick in earlier. Perhaps now we WILL see some junglers continue to farm past 11 minutes (Master Yi, anyone?), but most junglers would rather be able to get more gold early on and then allow their team to access jungle resources after the first few clears.

I do want to note that after 11 minutes you're talking about a measly 170 more gold with that new ambient gold income that you're talking about. Now here is what I want the RIOT people to understand. The gold comparison for full blown jungle farming without interference on LIVE and BETA produce roughly the SAME AMOUNT OF GOLD. The only benefit is the 170ish more ambient gold, that was said to not be installed into the game yet. That means you have improved (as of right now) the new jungle by 170 gold in 11 minutes of game clock. Now I don't know about the rest of the player base who jungle... but I don't think 170 gold is going to replace 2 GP/10 items.

Just for giggles, on LIVE I get my Philo at around 6 minutes and HOG at around 10 in the ideal situation for maxing gold. Lot of Junglers are probably even faster than that, if they arent ganking but we'll go with mine for the fun of it. So from 6-10, Im making 120 gold from the philo, and from 10 minutes to 11, Im making 60 gold from both GP/10s. That's 180 gold by 11 minutes. So actually Im making more money on LIVE than on PBE in 11 minutes as a jungle with the current 2 GP/10 META.

Also if anyone wanted to know, I posted a similar thread that touches on this at,
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...1#post31583408
It's long winded but very complete in detail. D Maximus and I talk about our experiences testing for gold and it seems that even at the 15 minute mark, our gold income is VERY similar. And that's just me using ONE GP/10.

Now, I do understand that you guys have a valid argument in saying, "See? The new jungle allows you to farm the same gold into mid game without getting GP/10 items that season 2 junglers required." While this is true, what is also true is that you have stated that Junglers are economically poorer than the rest of the lanes(exeption is support). If you check the World Championships Stats, you'll notice that Junglers are about 60 gold per minute poorer. And it was your intent to get us up on par with Lane players income. If our gold status after 15 minutes of game is arguably similar with Season 2's two GP/10 META. Then you have just created a 900 gold deficit at 15 minutes in regards to said intent. We have to be getting that gold flow starting at the beginning...not 20 minutes into the game. Just something to think about I guess.

I have tried the jungle and been horribly disappointed. The mobs are tougher, meaning you are forced into the machete on most, if not all, jungle heroes. One of my favorite starts is to go boots 3 pots in jungle, but that is no longer possible. If you do not get machete, you are screwed. On top of that, without boots your ganks are weaker. And for heroes without sustain, good luck getting any reasonable amount of farm in the jungle. Every jungle hero I have played today has felt completely lackluster in their ability to gank or be effective mid game. I feel like my only option in any fight is to be destroyed.

The last thing I want to point out is now junglers are being pushed to make even larger investments into jungle items. If you want wriggles, you are now paying more for that item. So even assuming you get the same gold as before (which may be the case), you are behind in gold because you're spending more on forced items. Heart of gold, one of my favorite items for certain junglers, is now gone. If you decide to move away from machete after getting it early, you are now stuck with a useless 300g item. New jungle items have been added, and if you don't get them early, you are now slowing down your farm. If you do get them early, you lose even more effectiveness as a ganker. All I can say is this new system is completely lackluster and has severely limited the number of even somewhat viable junglers.