Originally Posted by Alfirinestel
I'd like to debunk some of the limited thinking to the possibilities of Nami's Lore that adds depth to the tribes of Moon and Sun. I believe that Nami's lore can ONLY add to Diana and Leona's stories. Mind you, Nami is IronStylus' creation, and as her creator it only makes sense the she should affect the stories of other characters he has created. It is hard to incorporate one character's stories into another "creator's" character's story without even more complexities, loop-holes and "reworks". Now, I'd like to address this simpleton idea, that because Mount Taragon is in the middle of Valoran and is far away from the "sea" makes it impossible for Avatars of the Sun and Moon to travel. This is by far a ridiculous restriction and implication. I believe many religion would travel the world on a quest to draw closer to their "God" such as a pilgrimage for the Jews and Muslims into the Holy City for prayer. It is not far fetched to believe the Solari and Lunari, had to make a similar pilgrimage, whether out of piety to preserve relations between different people groups or these ceremonies performed mutually kept each group safe from X factors (which remains a mystery but a possibility for both). And a quest, keep in mind, is indeed a long journey towards a super-oriented goal that brought people together. If you look at Valoran's map
, it is possible for you to travel easily to the sea following the Serpentine River on a boat into Kaladoun, which I'm sure, has lots of Coves.
Second, it is POSSIBLE to wipe out an entire TRIBE of LUNARI within 100 years, especially if it is a ethnocentric tribe like society that lives secluded in a mountain and isolated from other "nations" (like Rakkor). This is because the Rakkor are already a small % of Valoran and the religious sect of "people group" within their tribe are even smaller. The Lunari and Solari are not like modern day religions where the preservation of its teachings could be found in millions of "writings" that traveled to the edges of the world because of technology such as the printing press or an established writing rituals as the Jews had. You must compare it to the ancient "pagan" religion of tribes of our world such as found in the Vedic Sankrits where the "Aryans" took over and assimilated a people group and their religion. Not much is know about the other tribe and their religion then explained in the text. If the Lunari and Solari, co-existed and they had their documents in central area, were like the tribes in the Vedic Sankrits and were an isolated ethnocentric tribe like society like many of you have suggested; then, a genocide of Lunari tribe and their culture and history can take a single day. Lunari writings burned, men, women and children even killed. Babies that were too young to remember were taken in and assimilated (a possible case with Diana). And perhaps those wise and compassionate with a love for knowledge enough within the Solari even tried to save some of the Lunari text and hide it to where Diana discovered it. As you can seen not ALL traces of it has been wiped-out as assumed. It is also with much evidence that all the Solari priests and elders KNOW of the Lunari but continually denies it. So, you are right to assume within hundred, someone, somewhere MUST remember. The Solari priests/elders does and the hidden texts, temple, relic, armor Diana has found verifies that the Lunari has not been wiped out so "cleanly". Furthermore, in a genocide of a secret tribe, none of the surrounding lands would care of Rakkor or their religions or their internal religious affairs because they can't. They have no knowledge nor is there such a central government that rules the entire land including tribes (until League). What has only bought this "Solari" as a even smaller % of people group of the already small % of people group of all Valoran, the tribe of Rakkor, to light has been because Leona has joined the League and now the Lunari because of Diana.
Lastly, lets clarify the word ANCIENT. This idea of ANCIENT, is an adjective for describing something for the way it is perceived and NOT an actual "measurement" for TIME. One good example is Mount St. Helens of May 19, 1982
. How long did it take for nature and natural weather to form the crater within that mountain? Some could say 1,000 of years, and it looks ANCIENT. But in reality, it took only a day. This was Mount St. Helens in 1980
, right before it's catastrophic eruption. After its eruption, the summit collapsed to form the crater and the surrounding foliage apparently dead. With this I propose that it takes no time for a ruined and desecrated temple to look ANCIENT simply after two years in the aftermath of a catastrophic genocide and left isolated to atrophy and enter entropy.
A quest is a journey into another world and cultural to accomplish a goal, perhaps a super-oriented goal with others. Tides are the rise and fall of sea levels caused by the combined effects of the gravitational forces exerted by the Moon and the Sun and the rotation of the Earth.
It is with this I finally propose that it not be hard to imagine, tribe of The Sun and tribe of The Moon had cooperated in this ceremonial quest once with the tribe of the Sea on a solstice (a rotation of the Earth and alignment with the moon and sun) to benefit all the tribes of the Earth. And that balance must once again be redeemed. So let your skepticism wonder and doubt but never restrict, and let your imagination soar with possibilities.
First, let me start by saying that these are a lot of valid points, such as the hundred years for genocide in a small community. There are a few things though I would like to say.
The idea of a pilgrimage. Pilgrimages can be and have been recorded and detailed by other people and other cultures. Especially with how close they'd have to go to Demacia if they took the most direct and shortest route through the marshes of Kaladoun? I'd imagine there would be other people who would be like, "Yeah this was a centennial ritual, always has been," if asked, unless it was done in the dead of night without anyone knowing ever.
And say there were patrols out that was decided to try and intervene because a pilgrimage was happening, maybe one time they're killed and they go "Oh wow why'd that happen?" Then you have another basket to deal with. Or hey, the Lunari and Solari explain that they're on a pilgrimage and they intend no harm and the patrol goes okay, go through, we'll keep record of this so we know. Is this a repeated ritual? Yes? Alright, keeping note of this for future generations.
Any villages that belong to Demacia in the marshes? Any villagers that could have possibly seen them?
Another thing is that the Rakkor would know of both the Solari and the Lunari, why would they not be? The Solari and Lunari people were once Rakkor, and their new members come from Rakkor who are more faith oriented rather than battle oriented I'd imagine. The population of the Rakkor, the Solari, and even the Lunari, are incredibly stagnant because they are on a mountain, and killing that many people would certainly be a problem.
Unless they took the route of the Christians did with the Cathars. When a Christian commander asked his superior officer how they can tell the difference between a Christian and a Cathar, the response was, "Kill them all and let God sort them out."
Would the Rakkor let that slide? There are only Rakkor on that mountain. The Solari and the Lunari are/were their religions, but in the end, they're all Rakkor. That is why I mentioned the Spartan government, two kings and the council of twenty eight elders. Solari avatar, Lunari avatar, twenty eight old fogeys and tadah you have the Rakkor government.
Next point: The problem with the temple. I was alluding to this before, but I should just straight out say it, what if the Solari avatar who killed the Lunari avatar sealed the armor away in the temple as a sort of realization of her error, by killing her other half? The murals show the Solari avatar killing the Lunari avatar, who looks hurt, betrayed by this fact. Would the Solari avatar let the armor of the Lunari slide away from her if she was so hellbent? What if it was the Solari avatar who hid away all those clues in her own sacred texts, who did all of this as a way for a future generation to make up for the fact that they committed an atrocity?
The Solari avatar killed the Lunari avatar. There is no feasible way for her weapon and her armor to not be taken by the Solari unless it's the head of the entire religion who takes it and does with it as she pleases.
The idea of ancient, as you said, is based on perception.
The thing about Mt. St. Helens, though, is that it's nature ancient, not human ancient. The laws of stratigraphy play a huge role here because it took millions of years to create the general base of the mountain. The fact that it took a day to reshape it does not detract from how old it is, it simply changed its appearance. If you go into the actual mountain's stratigraphic layers then you'll see how old it truly is.
In terms of writing, ancient is once more based on perception. When you read an ancient event, what do you think of, first thing? Do you think of World War II, the Boer War, or do you think of something like the Battle of Marathon? If you read about an ancient structure, is it the Eiffel Tower or is it chances to be Mayan ruins?
When describing people, you can use ancient to describe how old and wrinkly they are, or ancient as in they are an ancient corpse that is significantly old.
Ancient History does have a time frame, from the beginning of (written) recorded human history to the early middle ages, which can be start as early as the 30th century BCE but typically ends at the early middle ages because it is no longer considered to be ancient. It becomes classified as something else at that point because in our current time frame, it is not considered to be "old" enough yet.
When the word "ancient" is invoked, you do not think back one hundred or two hundred years, not the typical person I'd imagine. I'm sure most North Americans know about the typical ancient cultures: Romans, Greeks, Macedonians, Mayans, Assyrians, the Huns and so forth.
The word "ancient" is based on perception, but when you are told and given societal standards as to what ancient is, there are certain expectations when using it when regarding certain nouns such as buildings, compared to a laptop which becomes ancient in a month.
If the Sun and the Moon worked together in such an endeavor, why then would the Solari ever kill the Lunari? Are they so genocidal that they were willing to kill not only the Lunari but an entire culture of merpeople because the Lunari did something that they didn't like? Why not relay a messenger to them? Why take away that responsibility from Leona?
Having it become a tradition, a thousand years old, is a different story compared to 100 years because they're trying to sweep the dirt under the rug. Would the Rakkor people be alright with completely damning another culture of people?
And the final kicker is what do the Solari and the Lunari get out of this deal? What brought the Lunari and the Solari to the ocean in the first place? Nami's lore doesn't say what the bearer of the moonstone received for doing such a daunting task. Why would they leave their mountain in the first place to help Nami's people? What would bring them to the seas at all? Does the water call to the Solari and the Lunari? They're not a coastal city, so there goes many options as to what can be traded.
It's a ritual, but if you want to go into specifics, the ancients almost always did rituals and sacrifices in exchange for something. You kill a bird and look at its entrails, you can read the future, it's your job as a haruspex. You kill a bull for Zeus and you want protection or his blessing or something on those lines.
That is how ancient religions and societies worked because they needed things desperately. They couldn't do a sacrifice out of the goodness of their heart and expect nothing in return (Unless something amazing happened and they do a sacrifice as a way of saying thank you), and traditions tend to be kept so long as the civilization lives. Why did the Solari and the Lunari make a deal in the first place that took time and effort, and put them in danger, for these people? What brought them there in the first place?
And last, but not least, it's IronStylus' character. You're absolutely right, what he does with her, he will see fit. This is a discussion thread. I for one, said that Nami could help strengthen other forms of lore because Leona and Diana's lore already has so much going for it. I never said Nami's lore cannot be used for them, but I personally think it would be a shame since you have literally a huge world map to work with and all these cultures and people within them, and you can play with many, many themes.
What if it was related to Bilgewater? Can Bilgewater do with more development, and could use such a deal to their advantage since they are a coastal city-state that strongly survives on said waters?
There are always multiple routes that need to be looked at, and never settled on one thing. That is why this is a discussion thread, and so, I agree with your sentiment: Never restrict, and let your imagination soar with possibilities.