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Oracle's Elixir

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Sereg Anfaug ?? Senior Member
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12-10-2012

It now only lasts 5 minutes, yet still costs the full 400 gold... what the ****?

Fix one of these things. Either significantly increase the duration, or decrease the gold cost accordingly.

 
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SteezySmurf ?? Junior Member
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12-10-2012

Leave it as is.

 
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Pocketx ?? Recruiter
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12-10-2012

Let me give you some number's so you can understand it mathematically.
Oracle's Elixir = 400g

Cost/Value of Wards
Sight Ward = 75g (Ghost Ward has a value of 75g since it does the same as a Sight Ward)
Vision Ward = 125g

Amount earned when killing a ward

Sight Ward and Vision Ward (including Wriggle Ward) = 25g
Ghost Ward (Wards from Sightstone, Ruby Sightstone, or 'Explorer" Mastery) = 10g


So, if you buy an Oracles Elixir (400g) and kill at least 4 wards (lets say they are three regular Sight Wards), that means you have broke even with its cost value.

300g -denied from enemy by killing 4 Sight Wards (75 gold*4=300)
100g -gained from killing 4 Sight Wards (25 gold*4=100)
MINUS
400g -the Cost of Oracles

Of course the gold value varies based on the situation. But let me give you a very common scenario.

I am a Jungler.
I buy oracles. (-400g)
I kill a Sight Ward at bottom lane. (+100g) (Denied 75g from killing ward and gained 25g from killing ward)
I leave for a second only to come back and gank after the ward has been cleared.
We get one kill and an assist. (It doesn't matter how many assists since the gold is split among all the assists from a kill.)
Lets say it's the second kill of the game. So no first blood bonus, no Shut Down bonus,no reduce gold gain from multiple deaths, just a kill and assist. That's 300g for the kill, and 150g for the assist.

By me purchasing an Oracle's Elixir, and clearing the Sight Ward, I was able to successfully return for a kill/assist to my team.

Oracles Elixir = -400g cost
Sight Ward kill = 100g gain
Kill = 300g gain
Assist = 150g gain

That means I have increased the gold value of my team by 150g just by clearing "1" Sight Ward and then ganking. And this can be done in less than 5 minutes (the new timer for Oracle's Elixir) at least 2 times.

So you see, the value isn't just by killing wards, but opening opportunities to gain more gold through other means once the wards are cleared.
Examples-
- Clearing wards and taking Dragon/Baron
- Clearing wards and ganking
- Clearing wards and invading enemy jungle

 
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Qwid ?? Senior Member
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12-10-2012

@pocketx so what? your logic may be sound, but riot did absolutely nothing to oracles but nerf it. This nerf is also an indirect buff to any stealth champ. combine that with the fact that oracles last only 5 minutes AND can be taken away by death, the nerf is too much for the "potential" gain. If riot wants to keep oracles timed, then they should AT LEAST keep it on death, same as the elixirs, or lower the gold cost. A nerf this extreme on ANY other item would warrant some other adjustment to compensate.

 
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Sereg Anfaug ?? Senior Member
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12-10-2012

It's worth noting that in bot lane, you'll mostly be clearing sightstone wards.

That said, this is still ridiculous. Oracle used to be permanent and taking it was a gamble. Now it's almost useless - even if you don't die with it, the odds of finding enough wards to make it pay off are minimal. Your 75gp denied argument is bull****. That would be the case if you could clear the ward before they ever got any use out of it. However, the act of clearing it guarantees that all but the least map aware team to ever play the game will notice you in it, which means the ward has served its purpose.

So, let's look at it this way - your most heavily warded target lane, instead of returning 25 gold per ward kill, now returns only 10. You deny nothing in gold cost, since the wards are free from a core support item. You occasionally get a return when you find a non-sightstone ward placed by jungle, mid, or top(unless they've also purchased a sightstone, which I have seen), but you still deny only a fraction of the 75g cost, since the ward will have been up for sometime before you find it, and may have already spotted something of importance, and now also spots you. When this happens, you return 1/16th of the cost of the elixir, which is a whole lot more expensive now that you need to re-buy it ever 5 minutes.

There's also the problem of teemo(which is what happened in the game that prompted this post, wherein I discovered that oracle only lasted 5 minutes). His mushrooms return 0 gold when you kill them. However, he can continue to place them forever. To deal with him, you need to constantly expend 400g every 5 minutes, and get nothing for it(save whatever incidental wards you clear beyond the mushrooms), which basically makes the oracle a bigger drain then it's worth, which means the teemo wins whether you continue to buy oracles or not.

Yes, you can still rotate the burden of the oracle cost, but now, instead of whenever you die, it's whenever you die or every five minutes, whichever happens first.

Ultimately, this makes it a much larger financial burden on the team, with a much smaller return.

Edit: Qwid also makes a good point. Your whole argument was applicable before the nerf, and subject to chance. A gank might fail, a countergank might come in, you might not find enough wards to make the oracle pay off, but still not be able to gank because the lane is pushed(which is why you didn't find a ward), etc.

Sure, it's worth it if you make a successful kill, but that was true before the nerf as well. You just had more time to make it happen. Now, if it doesn't happen within 5 minutes, you just wasted 400g, and buying a second elixir as the jungler, while laning is still going on, is even more of a risk, since you're already down 400g from the last one. You can rotate it to the support, but then you'll get spotted in top and mid wards, and won't be able to clear them. Or you can buy it again, -800g, and maybe it will pay off this time, or maybe you will run into the same problems you did with the first one.

Something needs to be changed to offset the difference. Dropping the cost would be one way(what did Oracle's Extract cost? I never played the game modes where it was used, but I assume it was less then the elixir). Increasing the timer to a more reasonable 10 or 15 minutes would also help. That prevents it from being infinite, which I assume is why Riot changed it in the first place, but still rewards safe play and allows you more time to get some use out of it. A third method would be to ignore deaths, making it last for 5 minutes no matter what.

 
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Apollinarius ?? Senior Member
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12-10-2012

What's worst in my opinion is that the change was intended to diminish snowballing in games because a team that was ahead and got oracles could deny vision.

I feel that the result is the opposite. A team that is ahead and wants to deny vision can afford the 400 gold every 5 minutes increased cost. A team that is behind cannot. One of the first things to go when teams start to fall behind is ward coverage because they are trying to save up money for items that give combat advantage. In that vein, it is much harder for the team that is behind to pony up an extra 400 gold every 5 minutes (it's the equivalent of 13gp10) to stop themselves from getting caught unawares and destroyed.

The result? Games have become way more snowbally. The richer team buys an oracles and is basically guaranteed a victory simply because they can camp bushes and farm safely all over the map because their wards never get cleared and the enemy team is denied wards.

 
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Qsario ?? Senior Member
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12-10-2012

What I would like to see is an "oraclestone" type item as a sightstone counter. Make an item with an activation to give you a few seconds of oracle power every minute or so, but make it last for a short enough time that you can't keep it up 100% of the time.

So you could use it when needed, but you'd have to buy the elixir if you wanted to keep it up more of the time.

 
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NemesisOfReason ?? Senior Member
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12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocketx View Post
Let me give you some number's so you can understand it mathematically.
Oracle's Elixir = 400g

Cost/Value of Wards
Sight Ward = 75g (Ghost Ward has a value of 75g since it does the same as a Sight Ward)
Vision Ward = 125g

Amount earned when killing a ward

Sight Ward and Vision Ward (including Wriggle Ward) = 25g
Ghost Ward (Wards from Sightstone, Ruby Sightstone, or 'Explorer" Mastery) = 10g


So, if you buy an Oracles Elixir (400g) and kill at least 4 wards (lets say they are three regular Sight Wards), that means you have broke even with its cost value.

300g -denied from enemy by killing 4 Sight Wards (75 gold*4=300)
100g -gained from killing 4 Sight Wards (25 gold*4=100)
MINUS
400g -the Cost of Oracles

Of course the gold value varies based on the situation. But let me give you a very common scenario.

I am a Jungler.
I buy oracles. (-400g)
I kill a Sight Ward at bottom lane. (+100g) (Denied 75g from killing ward and gained 25g from killing ward)
I leave for a second only to come back and gank after the ward has been cleared.
We get one kill and an assist. (It doesn't matter how many assists since the gold is split among all the assists from a kill.)
Lets say it's the second kill of the game. So no first blood bonus, no Shut Down bonus,no reduce gold gain from multiple deaths, just a kill and assist. That's 300g for the kill, and 150g for the assist.

By me purchasing an Oracle's Elixir, and clearing the Sight Ward, I was able to successfully return for a kill/assist to my team.

Oracles Elixir = -400g cost
Sight Ward kill = 100g gain
Kill = 300g gain
Assist = 150g gain

That means I have increased the gold value of my team by 150g just by clearing "1" Sight Ward and then ganking. And this can be done in less than 5 minutes (the new timer for Oracle's Elixir) at least 2 times.

So you see, the value isn't just by killing wards, but opening opportunities to gain more gold through other means once the wards are cleared.
Examples-
- Clearing wards and taking Dragon/Baron
- Clearing wards and ganking
- Clearing wards and invading enemy jungle
You cannot just factor in gold from kills and assists; that is not an inference you can make. Now, considering that clearing one Sight Ward grants your team a net benefit of 100g, one would have to clear 4 Sight Wards (not necessarily a simple task) in order to break even with the cost of Oracle's Elixir as you mentioned. At the higher levels of play, it was typically the jungler who was the first to buy Oracles back in season 2. Ganking with Oracles is fine, but when you fail a gank a die (not uncommon) or if you get ambushed and die, you set yourself way back for early-mid game. Clearing wards typically requires that you set aside time and possibly put yourself in dangerous positions (opponents know where you are when you are near/clearing a ward and can guess where you will go afterwards) in order to actually find and clear the wards; during that time, you lose out on gold and experience from the jungle and/or possible kills/assists/saves.

Oracle's Elixir has always been a high risk, high skill (need good map awareness as to not die and knowledge of ideally every possible warding position as the situation demands), high reward item, but now it is a high risk, high skill, even lower reward item (no more than 5 minutes of effectiveness in season 3). With Sightstone being a staple on some roles/champions (an item that pays for itself in ~14 mins assuming you place a ward everytime when it is possible, on top of the health that it already gives), there needs to be a more worthwhile method of dealing with ward proliferation (one could always buy additional wards). From personal observation, many pros seem to agree that Oracle's Elixir is just not worth it anymore early-mid game. I would like to see Oracles get used throughout all stages of the game while still retaining its high risk aspect.

 
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Sereg Anfaug ?? Senior Member
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12-10-2012

Bump.

 
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footfoe ?? Senior Member
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12-10-2012

It was a little over powered for the winning team when it lasted forever.

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