You have to get it, on EVERYONE.

Razors got raped because now it builds from Machete, along with yet another Wriggle's nerf.

As stated before, it does nothing for you in a fight, it just helps you clear.

If I didn't have to get it on everyone, it would be ok, but you do, so it isn't. On some champs (like Xin for example) I prefer to get doran's most of the time for sustain. Considering machete does not have a 100% sell back, I feel like you are now obligated to get some kind of upgrade for it. Its very existance is frusterating.

There is no circumstance where I would ever want a spirit item. It's essentially the same cost as a Sunfire Cape or a Warmogs but isn't nearly as good a PvP item. I don't need mana regen and hp regen when monster do no damage to me after lvl 6.

Most of the jungle tanks in the game, actually.

Golem's Tenacity/Health/Armor solves Udyr's kiting problem in conjuction with Swiftness, for instance. Lets Sej/Naut pick up boots other than mercs (well, unless they're in dire need of MR, I guess).

plus, y'know, 25% boost to your AoEs-to-jungle-minions. That's a bit more useful than what Wriggles currently has on tap.

Lizard Elder, despite being horribly UP in comparison, is still fairly awesome on a fair number of champions (e.g. Hecarim - It procs on Q/W)

The only really valid argument is the one about cost, really. It's hard to justify 2000-odd gold when the jungle still has no money in it :\

personally.. i just find the things that build out of spirit stone feel very expensive with jungle income...

machete is nice, but it takes a really long time to get rolling

I like Doran's.

But I buy a machete later on then sell Dorans.

Its because the improvement it gives is small, a 10% increase with most jungle champs you still feel like the initial clear is a struggle.

and with most jungle champs you leave the jungle on that first clear pretty battered, and a lane gank is alot more risky.

I feel that the % damage increase should be more in the 20% region and it should give damage reduction from neutral creeps.

Hells they can increase the difficulty again if they wanted to but the machete needs tweaking.

Plus... can we get a new jungle, this old one has been around for ages, and really wasnt much of a rework, just a buffing to the minions. A rework would be more camps more winding paths etc.

Spirit stone upgrades provide **** value for a lot of Junglers.

That the spirit of the ancient golem - 2400 gold.
Now, compare that to Warmogs armor for a couple hundred gold more.
Begin to cry.

Are the stats on the AG going to help even remotely late game? Not a chance. It may remove a second or 2 from a camp clear at level 11.

Machete is a 300 gold tax to jungle, junglers are already taxed a summoner spell to jungle, it is annoying to have to pay taxes to play.

Heheh, "binary bit". Redundancy.

That really isn't much added complexity at all. Implementing different classes for minions and monsters would just be a straightforward application of polymorphism.