Originally Posted by Killzerz

Mundo is in god tier because I need 1 tank in god tier. Blitz is a half-tank, but he isn't really a full tank. Mundo has a ranged harass that hits really hard, he has innate steroids that means he only needs defensive items, and once he hits 6 he can basically sustain forever. He is a punching bag, but you cannot leave him alone otherwise he will solo whoever he targets on your team. He is the best kind of tank. The one you can't kill without concentrated effort and the one you can't ignore. Oh, and if you are feeling a bit of heat through the enemies Ignites/Morellonomicons, maybe try going Cleanse as a summoner spell. It won't help all engagements due to its CD, but it certainly swings the important ones where you all in them.

Originally Posted by naotasan

Karma should be god tier.

AoE heals and AoE damage and a fat shield with slows/speed ups?
ARAM/ABAM are all about sustaining.

Originally Posted by FDru

Well I was just poking fun with that comment, really. I don't take tier lists seriously for the most part, because they're pointless except for the god tier; everything else is very dependent on your comp and/or the enemy comp. The OP champs are simply OP because their power transcends team comp.

I read your initial explanation for Karthus, but I still disagree that he's any better than average on this map. An excellent Karthus player is still not going to be better than a Veigar who is basically giving your team a guaranteed kill every 10 seconds or so (late game, with Event Horizon maxed and some AP Veigar can easily kill any squishy with one Baleful Strike and Dark Matter alone, nevermind what happens to AP champs when he ults them). Karthus doesn't have the kind of initiate that mages like Fiddle or Veigar have... that long-lasting, hard CC is just too powerful. And Karthus is, IMO, a very easy kill, and then you just have to remember to walk out of his defile. The biggest thing that hurts Karthus on this map, though, is Barrier. Everyone has Barrier (and anyone that doesn't should) and Barrier totally counters his ultimate.



You don't need a tank in god tier. You need god tier champs. There is no particular need for a tank on this map in the first place, especially when champs like Blitz can fill that role perfectly. By the way, Alistar can tank hard, sustain very well (easily forever with an Athene's) and set up guaranteed kills in a way that Mundo can only dream of. Being a big ball of HP just isn't that valuable to be honest.

Originally Posted by blackDAILO

Yes, his sustain might be great, but the 20% healing reduction aura from the map really gimps him.

Originally Posted by naotasan

Karma should be god tier.

AoE heals and AoE damage and a fat shield with slows/speed ups?
ARAM/ABAM are all about sustaining.

Originally Posted by Killzerz

This just comes down to differences of opinion. You have yours, I have mine, so let's agree to disagree?

Originally Posted by FDru

No, I don't think so. I am going to take Veigar and instantly kill any Karthus I see because they all think "I'm gonna stack AP, build no defense at all and make the enemy team fear me". I'm not even going to use my ultimate because Dark Matter is the hardest hitting nuke in the entire game even before its 1:1 AP ratio scaling and can nearly 1-shot kill squishy champs by itself (it is really quite ridiculous), and then I'm going to Barrier his ultimate after he dies so the net result is Karthus doing basically nothing the entire match. Or I'll play Fiddle and drain tank him to death while staying at 100% health.

This is less of a difference of opinion than it is me having more experience on this map with better mages.

As for not seeing as many Mundos as you... I'm sure I have. I'm also sure I've seen a lot more Executioner's Callings than you (hint: it's OP, particularly against sustain champs like Mundo). While it's true that Mundo can probably 1v1 a carry, he does not do enough damage to kill a carry before they kill someone else or multiple someone elses (and lacks the CC to stop them), which is basically all they need to do to be useful.

As for Alistar being team reliant, that's fine because Alistar is always going to have his whole team right by his side on this map. He has trouble initiating sometimes, but he is a serious threat and can sustain his whole team (albeit slowly) so he's not totally useless in times where the enemy team is playing safe.

Originally Posted by Killzerz

What. It isn't that big of a deal. Look at any other champ. Nobody has the sustain he does, especially in the midst of a fight.

Also, I have seen him solo carries no problem provided they had equal amounts of gold. A good Mundo can do this. And if he wants, he just buys Thornmail if its really that big of a deal.