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If you use science as a weapon against religion, explain something to me.

 
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Taria05 ?? Senior Member
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12-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vapeurs View Post
Exactly. Religion is blind faith without ever considering you are wrong. If you think the religion you are in is wrong, you are not faithful in the first place. There is no way to test if your religion is wrong. I.E. nobody who has died came back and said Christians are right, or Jews are right, or Muslims, or Hindus, or Budists, or Scientologists, etc and so forth.
Buddhism is a set of guidelines, not a rulebook. You view religion as a sterotypical subect, while in reality it is not always about having blind faith. Believe it or not, some religions actually have theorists, people who say "this could be the right way of doing things, but it isn't certain". In fact, within Buddhism itself, the only way to be an unfaithful person is to admit that your believe you are a failure of a human being and have no intention of changing. Not all religions are black and white, and the fact that you are making an uneducated ultimatum is hypocritical to the scientific method.

 
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Durzaka ?? Senior Member
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12-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taria05 View Post
Buddhism is a set of guidelines, not a rulebook. You view religion as a sterotypical subect, while in reality it is not always about having blind faith. Believe it or not, some religions actually have theorists, people who say "this could be the right way of doing things, but it isn't certain". In fact, within Buddhism itself, the only way to be an unfaithful person is to admit that your believe you are a failure of a human being and have no intention of changing. Not all religions are black and white, and the fact that you are making an uneducated ultimatum is hypocritical to the scientific method.

Buddhism is unique in its beliefs compared to other religions, but it still has ridiculous beliefs, such as the concept of reincarnation, which CAN be argued against with science (well, that is a poor example, but i think you get what im saying).

No one says Religions are black and white, but the primary arguments between science and religion is creationism and the existence of a higher power and heaven and hell.



And for the OP:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Postal Twinkie View Post
Not only that, but Science is constantly asking its peers to prove it wrong. Scientist actively look for reasons they are wrong, and how their data could have misled them, how they could have perceived something wrong. Science embraces failure.

Religion doesn't do any of this.
Pretty much says it all.

 
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wwong3 ?? Member
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12-29-2012

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Originally Posted by AK47WOLF View Post
Science is a bid by humanity to understand our environment, why things are the way they are, and how/why things happen. And many other things. People who use science as a weapon against religion regularly claim that "Well, I can back this up with evidence, all you have is blind faith."

Let's just say for a moment that religion IS blind faith. That said, can you now explain to me how science is not also a blind faith? Specifically a blind faith via the assumption that human perception is absolute, and is never in error?

Please don't misunderstand. Science does admit error. But when we discover something we perceive to be correct, we assume (have faith in, if you will) that our perception is without error. In other words, scientists assume things to be correct based on their "faith" in human perception being an absolute in the universe.
Religion's Faith - This is how the world is because of MY FEELINGS. The world is flat if I SAY SO. What? Reality? KILL THIS INFIDEL IN THE NAME OF GOD AND MY FEELINGS! But seriously, how do I know that god want's me to kill this infidel? Cus I FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL it!

Science - I was wrong. Everything I believed in and taught from a childhood age, all the people I trusted, are all wrong. The world is in fact NOT FLAT. We were all proven wrong because of THE WORLD. That sucks. I would love to defy the world but I don't decide what truth is.

That's the difference. The difference is that in religion, belief comes from one's emotions and refuses contrary evidence, information, reasoning, logic and all other things. In science, belief comes from evidence, information, reasoning, logic, and the like. Basically one cares about truth, the other cares about one's own F-KING EGO.

To address the statement that both can be wrong, look up degrees of certainty.

 
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Kodoku ?? Senior Member
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12-29-2012

The devil has hired me to be his advocate.

Science does rely on faith. Not on the infallibility of perceptions, as no such assumption is ever made and, in fact, we know our perceptions to be highly fallible and unreliable in many ways. Instead, we have faith that the world will continue into the future in a very specific way. That the sun will rise. That gravity will continue to hold us to the earth. That our food will continue to nourish rather than poison.

There is nothing logically inconsistent about supposing gravity to reverse itself, or the sun to cease rising. So it's not something that can be demonstrated as a result of pure necessity. Clearly we must resort to the evidence. But consider two hypotheses.

Gravity is a universal attractive force for all time.
Gravity is an attractive force until December 30th, 2012, at which point it becomes a repulsive force.

Both hypotheses equally predict our evidence, so our evidence does not distinguish between them. There is not a shred of reasoning to support one over the other. It is thus blind faith.

 
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Mere Intricacy ?? Senior Member
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12-29-2012

I think the OP's argument is a very interesting train of thought.
It is a great philosophical argument, what is can really ever know.
As I've mentioned before I like the Descartian philosophy which states the only thing we can know is real or true is our own consciousness.

Relating to the OP's argument, don't think it is fair the say that this "blind faith" is linked to science, as it is in fact innately linked to the human condition.
While our perceptions may not be real and the world around us could be completely different or a fabrication entirely, I don't think this is ever really focused on, because what purpose does it really serve.
However, in anything larger than an atomic scale the world has shown itself to be somewhat predicable and to behave the same way regularly and even follow laws, which have been discovered by scientists. Although I don't think this is limited to science. I think nearly every single action is dictated by this blind faith that the world around us follows the same predicable pattern that we can perceive.

tl;dr I believe that this perception that the world we experience is real, is a flaw of the human condition, not not directly linked to science. Most people; religious or not religious, accept the world around them as real and not a fabricated. Science is started from that fountain, and the fact of the matter, it is sound because the world at an atomic level is predictable.

 
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Llamalord135 ?? Senior Member
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12-29-2012

Actually there is a difference between faith and blind faith. I'm not really familiar with philosophy but I think philosophers of science would most likely argue that science is an approximation to reality, and that is the best most efficient methodology for explaining the natural world that humans are capable of.

But it's mostly silly philosophical ideas because hey, we could all be living in some computer simulation and none of this is actually true for the 'real' world outside the computer. What matters is that it works to explain things, the faith comes in when we ask ourselves if we are limited by our own perception of reality. The assumption is made that what humans see and hear actually does exist. Blind faith would be having someone just tell you something is true, and you believe it 'blindly' or without any justification. Having faith in science says that we believe what we see is real, and that people are making the best and most logical attempt to explain things with some evidence/justification that it is actually true, given the assumption that we aren't actually just a computer simulation or something.

 
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Kodoku ?? Senior Member
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12-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Llamalord135 View Post
Actually there is a difference between faith and blind faith. I'm not really familiar with philosophy but I think philosophers of science would most likely argue that science is an approximation to reality, and that is the best most efficient methodology for explaining the natural world that humans are capable of.

But it's mostly silly philosophical ideas because hey, we could all be living in some computer simulation and none of this is actually true for the 'real' world outside the computer. What matters is that it works to explain things, the faith comes in when we ask ourselves if we are limited by our own perception of reality. The assumption is made that what humans see and hear actually does exist. Blind faith would be having someone just tell you something is true, and you believe it 'blindly' or without any justification. Having faith in science says that we believe what we see is real, and that people are making the best and most logical attempt to explain things with some evidence/justification that it is actually true, given the assumption that we aren't actually just a computer simulation or something.
Science has worked so far. But even if we accept that everything we think we have observed and learned about the world has been true so far, what reason do we have for thinking it will continue that way into the future? I'm not just talking about some kind of absolute justification that makes it impossible to be otherwise, I mean literally any non-arbitrary reason whatsoever for supposing that will world will continue into the future the way we think it will.

 
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Llamalord135 ?? Senior Member
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12-29-2012

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Originally Posted by Kodoku View Post
Science has worked so far. But even if we accept that everything we think we have observed and learned about the world has been true so far, what reason do we have for thinking it will continue that way into the future? I'm not just talking about some kind of absolute justification that makes it impossible to be otherwise, I mean literally any non-arbitrary reason whatsoever for supposing that will world will continue into the future the way we think it will.
There isn't ^_^

Science as an approximation to reality is an appropriate description because there isn't any absolute guarantee that anything will always be true. Still, some approximations are bad and some are good. I like to think of it like in mathematics. There are things in math that are not representable in any simple fashion, but a simple approximation makes thins much easier. Some of them are really good and some of them are only good for doing certain things. Science is a great approximation, much like having a higher order approximation in math the error is smaller, but it takes much more information to perform.

 
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Kodoku ?? Senior Member
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12-29-2012

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There isn't ^_^

Science as an approximation to reality is an appropriate description because there isn't any absolute guarantee that anything will always be true. Still, some approximations are bad and some are good. I like to think of it like in mathematics. There are things in math that are not representable in any simple fashion, but a simple approximation makes thins much easier. Some of them are really good and some of them are only good for doing certain things. Science is a great approximation, much like having a higher order approximation in math the error is smaller, but it takes much more information to perform.
There's no non-arbitrary reason whatsoever for thinking the sun will rise tomorrow? o_O

 
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wwong3 ?? Member
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12-29-2012

GUYS FFS HAVE ANY OF YOU HEARD OF THE TERM

DEGREES OF CERTAINTY?

It's not even remotely interesting. There's a chance before drinking the next cup of water, some weird event will happen that'll make you unable to process water and instead process oil. Still wana drink water and die? :| dumb MFs.