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Warwick, some thoughts, a little depth

 
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Onimus Terlain ?? Senior Member
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01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cook My Socks View Post
My buddy constantly plays ww and while his ganks are sub-par till lvl 6, he is still one of the few junglers that can do it without smite which is a rather large plus (yes, I am aware it would be harder, but still.)
I hate junglers who don't bring smite.

It's more than just a way to speed up clearing.

It's used to secure barons and dragons as well as buffs mid and late game.
It's critical to have on your team, cuz the enemy will definitely have it.

 
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HereticSage ?? Senior Member
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01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drinniol View Post
Seeing that blood hunt pop over your injured champion should be an "Oh ****, I'm in trouble, WW is going to be on my ass in moments" signal, not a "Walk back all the way from enemy tower to my tower before WW can even close for one Q."
You do know it's toggleable? Off pre-gank, on once they see you. Also, it's fair because it grants you vision of them.

 
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VeRzicK ?? Member
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01-07-2013

i used to jungle him full atk spd rune set and run long sword.. went pretty well not sure if it still works.

 
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HereticSage ?? Senior Member
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01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeRzicK View Post
i used to jungle him full atk spd rune set and run long sword.. went pretty well not sure if it still works.
You can take machete with that and deal massive true damage.

 
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Macguffin ?? Senior Member
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01-07-2013

I've been a WW player since beta... well ok that isn't true because I gave up on him when they took away the 6 hits on his ult and it was no longer possible to solo dragon with him at level 5. Warwick has always been a poor scaling champ with several conflicting stats, in fact most champions from back then had this problem (and have since been changed). Warwick to me just isn't threatening, I remember at one time he was one of the strongest champs in game and to fight toe to toe with him resulted in your death, even if WW was at low life. Several nerfs and a complete re-focusing later he's pretty much a neutered and 'meh' champion. That's how bad it is, he isn't even Anti-fun, he's just 'meh'.

His Q has so much going for it that it's throttled to the point of just being a nuisance. This is something that hits for % of life, and heals. But consider that many other bruisers, jungles, and even tanks major damage skill can usually scale to a point where they can deal much more damage as a % of life than Warwick is able to because they actually have scaling on their abilites that they can use. (Also with the proliferation of MP/ArP these champs are even able to do it against beefier champs that warwick traditionally do better against)

W is fine. I do miss when it was global though.

E is a worthless pile of horrible and fail. Rarely, if ever, will this stupid skill actually be active and rarer still will you actually be able to do anything about it. This skill is actually the reason I gave up on WW completely. I was sick and tired of ulting onto an overextened lane, applying red, and Q'ing them down to 1/4th their life and they simply WALK AWAY with me chasing behind waiting for my E to finally activate so I can catch up and hit them. If I was lucky and my E DID activate then Flash, and there is 0% chance of catching that champ by RUNNING through the tower shots as they peacefully leave.

R is of course simply ignored because Riot's currently giving all their ****s to Eve and Twitch (Both have higher win rates than WW and every patch that 30% lifesteal is there is another patch of me lol'ing at my former main).

My suggestion would be a rework.

Remake his E into his passive: When an enemy is at 60% life Warwick gains vision of a champion within 1200 (a single teemo beyond his basic sight) Warwick gains 30 MS, this bonus increases to 40 at 40% and 50 at 20%

Q needs to be reworked to be scaled off of AD, and lifesteal is increased dramatically the lower WW's life is (a reverse execution if you will)
W Remains the same
E should be switched with his current passive and scaled appropriately. Deal bonus damage per attack and gain that much life, with a small amount of bonus health scaling on both. When at max stats against a target give Warwick a small (5-10%) slow against that target and no-clip through minions for a few seconds.
Ult deals physical damage, fixed.

Warwick has always been one of the strongest champions in the game in a 1 on 1 fight. But the game has evolved and NOBODY goes into a 1 on 1 fight where they think they can lose. I'm simply spit balling some changes to keep Warwick a strong (though admitidly weaker at the beginning) fighter but also give him the ability to actually run someone down after an exchange.

 
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MaDiGaR ?? Junior Member
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01-07-2013

Bump. Still not much like finding viable hybrid kit on this guy but I'll keep at it.

 
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Afortuna ?? Member
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01-07-2013

Similar to a prior post, I used to play him all the time, but not so much now. Too easy to knock him out of his ult. Too much of a pain to toggle his Scent on and off to move around without letting the other team know you are there. Loved building AS items with on-hit (Teemo similar build) on him, but that negates his ult. Can build him Tanky, but then why not play a tank or Garen.

 
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Nasaam ?? Junior Member
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01-07-2013

WW is... well, he's no good, anymore. Used to be one of the easiest junglers in the game. Then they scaled the jungle up.
Q costs too much mana, and is his primary source of damage. It does scale of AP, but AP BUILDS ARE BAD, because it also scales off the target's HP, and you will only have enough AP to make that useful during early game, without nerfing all your other skills - no need for hybrid builds. Honestly, they just need to decrease the mana cost and remove the AP ratio, altogether - no need to change it to AD, because the base damage will get you through to the part where the HP% damage kicks in. The HP% is plenty of damage, and it makes him a decent tank killer. When jungling, Q is what does all the work, which means a successful invade can set you back almost 3 levels, because WW really can't take Lizard by himself anymore, and getting help after an invade can put your lanes in danger.

W is the only good thing on this guy. It counts for assists now, which is great, and it's a lot of attack speed. His base attack is pretty good too, so with the right masteries and glyphs, he can get by on this in the jungle, for a while.

E is useless. Completely useless. The range and speed are only significant at rank 3 or more, which you don't want early enough to make it any good. In addition, it only procs at 50% hp or less. The team fight is over by then. If an enemy is that low, they're going to die, or get out, and in most cases, they escape, because they have backup to help them, and you'd need practically an entire lane for E to be able to chase anyone down. E is completely useless for engaging anyone who is going to stay in a fight, and does not reveal stealth champs. This ability just needs to go. Either replace it with a group speed buff, like his W (call it "Leader of the Pack", or something), or come up with something else.

And now the R... oh god, the R. Suppress = good. It scales of AD, also good. Even though it is magic damage, it STILL BENEFITS FROM LIFESTEAL. This is important because it grants 30%, and you should probably already be building LS, anyway, so this ability at best will heal you to full. It also procs effects like Hydra's cleave, so you can damage multiple targets, if you build that. Now, the down-side. It leaves you completely vulnerable to everyone you aren't suppressing, and many times I've seen the animation continue when the target is no longer there (whether you've been stunned or not). I've also noticed a bug that needs immediate attention - Warwick will sometimes jump to the target and attack, but the target will not be suppressed at all. This leaves you swiping at the open air while the enemy team laughs and nukes you. So basically EVEN IF YOUR SUPPRESS FAILS, YOU MAY KEEP STANDING THERE LIKE AN IDIOT. This is very bad.
Basically, our dear puppy needs some love from Riot.

 
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Drinniol ?? Senior Member
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01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticSage View Post
You do know it's toggleable? Off pre-gank, on once they see you. Also, it's fair because it grants you vision of them.
Of course I know that! What I mean is: even if you gank perfectly, and get them to 50% with your laner and your ult, many champ's escape moves are much, much stronger than Bloodhunt.

Warwick has no CC besides his ult, and instead depends on catching up quickly with Blood Hunt, but he just doesn't catch up quickly enough to actually be a threat. That is, whether the enemy gets away slowly and barely or gets away handily is the same thing to you: no kill. Blood Hunt needs to be strong enough to actually SECURE kills, but it just doesn't do anything before you near max rank. Some champs have escapes strong enough to handily escape even max rank Blood Hunt - see Eve's 70% MS speed steroid, for example.

Personally, I really like the idea of just running someone down rather than slowing or stunning them. It's pretty unique and really fits with Warwick's flavor. HOWEVER, it has an inherent disadvantage in a game like League because this means that your opponent is much more likely to reach a favorable position such as a turret or his allies before you kill him. Given this, Warwick's ability to run people down needs to be REALLY strong. If Blood Hunt was 40% (or more) at all ranks, he'd actually be a usable if still somewhat weak ganker pre-6. He'd also just be much stronger in general, since he'd be able to leave E at 1 or 2 points and invest more into W.

 
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Drinniol ?? Senior Member
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01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasaam View Post
WW is... well, he's no good, anymore. Used to be one of the easiest junglers in the game. Then they scaled the jungle up.
Q costs too much mana, and is his primary source of damage. It does scale of AP, but AP BUILDS ARE BAD, because it also scales off the target's HP, and you will never have enough AP to make it useful, without nerfing all your other skills - no need for hybrid builds. Honestly, they just need to decrease the mana cost and remove the AP ratio, altogether - no need to change it to AD, because the HP% damage is plenty. When jungling, Q is what does all the work, which means a successful invade can set you back almost 3 levels, because WW really can't take Lizard by himself anymore, and getting help after an invade can put your lanes in danger.

W is the only good thing on this guy. It counts for assists now, which is great, and it's a lot of attack speed. His base attack is pretty good too, so with the right masteries and glyphs, he can get by on this in the jungle, for a while.

E is useless. Completely useless. The range and speed are only significant at rank 3 or more, which you don't want early enough to make it any good. In addition, it only procs at 50% hp or less. The team fight is over by then. If an enemy is that low, they're going to die, or get out, and in most cases, they escape, because they have backup to help them, and you'd need practically an entire lane for E to be able to chase anyone down. E is completely useless for engaging anyone who is going to stay in a fight, and does not reveal stealth champs. This ability just needs to go. Either replace it with a group speed buff, like his W (call it "Leader of the Pack", or something), or come up with something else.

And now the R... oh god, the R. Suppress = good. It scales of AP, also good. Even though it is magic damage, it STILL BENEFITS FROM LIFESTEAL. This is important because it grants 30%, and you should probably already be building LS, anyway, so this ability at best will heal you to full. It also procs effects like Hydra's cleave, so you can damage multiple targets, if you build that. Now, the down-side. It leaves you completely vulnerable to everyone you aren't suppressing, and many times I've seen the animation continue when the target is no longer there (whether you've been stunned or not). I've also noticed a bug that needs immediate attention - Warwick will sometimes jump to the target and attack, but the target will not be suppressed at all. This leaves you swiping at the open air while the enemy team laughs and nukes you. So basically EVEN IF YOUR SUPPRESS FAILS, YOU MAY KEEP STANDING THERE LIKE AN IDIOT. This is very bad.
Basically, our dear puppy needs some love from Riot.
OK since I've heard so many conflicting things about the lifesteal from the passive benefitting or not from lifesteal, I decided to test it. I'd always assumed that it didn't because that's how other magical onhits worked, and the healing I'd observed in game had always been low. On testing in a bot game, I think it DOES work. That is, I noticed more health being regained than would be possible from just 5 hits of the passive. It seemed to also be benefitting from other lifesteal - that is Vamp Scepters, but I'm honestly not sure because the healing was always pretty low. It's just that... after magic resist is taken into account, the damage done by the ult is pretty dang low, so even 90% lifesteal + WW's passive just isn't a whole lot of health regained. I'm not sure if the additional magic damage from items like Wit's or Malady works with lifesteal during the ult. They don't ordinarily, but if the ult is coded to allow ITS magic damage to work with lifesteal, it might work with them? Or maybe the ult just has spellvamp and they call it lifesteal? I'll have to do more testing later with a real person. The bots just make it so annoying to test - they do silly things like attack me right after the ult is finished so I have trouble recording exactly how much health is being regained.

In any event... the fact is that your ult is going to be doing at best a few hundred damage after resists, and you'll have maybe 50% lifesteal if you have wriggle's or something. Even with your passive chipping in, you'll recover something like a few hundred life, lategame. Not exactly massive regen.