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Sightstone now unaffordable early game, back to Philo+wards.

 
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R4GD0LL ?? Senior Member
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02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFortress View Post
health is the most effective early game defensive stat.

You guys keep citing the role of gp10 in the whole game, but you're forgetting the short game.

You know, some lane screws up and you're getting your teeth kicked in at 10 minutes. Now, SS's defensive warding capability and HP isn't an option, because you need boots too. and wards. NOW. so you get to pick between **** regen or **** AP, so you can get a handful of wards, soonish, maybe.

Surrender at 20 is inevitable because your role is reliant on the game being longer than half an hour.

And if the other team has a sightstone, their vision is just going to be that much harder to knock off.
You know, I'm seeing a huge wall of text but the only thing it seems to be saying is, "Wahh I don't want to spend the money". You complain that it's no longer worth using yet in the post I'm quoting you complain that the enemy team is getting more vision than you can handle by using it. Are you complaining about the item, or the fact that you don't know how to use it effectively?
Sightstone has gone from being cheap and easy coverage to something that takes a little (not even a lot, just a little) bit of self control to save for. If you don't have the self control to wait on the goodies in favor of buying the things you know your team needs, develop it. If you don't WANT to develop that self control, maybe you should play something other than support.
Support role is about taking the back seat to your team. It's about literally sitting back and boosting everyone else's numbers and performance, instead of your own. Support is underappreciated in what used to be low elo's, and absolutely critical in high elo games. If you cannot put your ego aside to do what you know is needed, don't play support. AP mid, adc, those are the roles for the glory hounds.
There really isn't any other way around it- while you play LoL you play by Riot's rules, and Riot is constantly watching games, trying to figure out who's doing what and why. They find the patterns of the things that are too strong in relation to the rest of the game, as well as things that are likewise too weak, and tweak them until the get to a level where things are even and the only deciding factor is your skill as a player. They'll never reach perfection in this regard, but in the year I've been playing they haven't taken a break from trying to for so much as a day.
Stop your whining and man up and try to improve yourself as a player instead of complaining that your recent favorite gimmick was de-gimmicked.

 
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Mradr ?? Senior Member
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02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
Sight ward: 75g, 3 minutes.
Sightstone: 475 upgrade cost.
475/75 = 6.33~.

This means you are making up the cost of Sightstone after 7 wards, or one recall. It has a Ruby Crystal as part of the recipe, meaning you're gaining 50% efficient health from the item if you never place a single ward.

Ruby Sightstone is slightly less efficient, but it still only takes 8 wards (which is, still, only one recall.)

Where are you just getting 475 from? It's 950 + 2 wards you have to buy to make up the missing time.

1100/75 = 15 wards to make up the differents...

Even if you rush it like that... you are still behinde because the enemy support just has to go minal wards + GP10 items and be WAY a head of you....
The fact that the wards are limited to 2 sight locations is the issue with the increase cost.... That or they need to redesign it to flow with the game from early to late otherwise atm... this item is a fail to get... trust me... I can still get ages WAY before the enemy support can using my method as the sightstone just punshes you now for gettting it.


I did more math on this thread: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3074729
If anyone wants to see a more break down on how it works...

Lets just get this out there tho... no one is saying to return it back to the OP state... all we're asking for is a better design flow on how to get the item... right now it's just OVER priced for how much it cost vs time of the game. We will never make up the cost to a already cheaper item.

We can't just look at it as free wards... we have to look at it as the item vs wards. If the item was just the only way to ward, then it wouldn't be such a big deal, but there are wards, so we have to take that into account. We also have to take in account on how many "free" wards we can place... 2 ward limit for the ter 1 that cost 950 gold. That's a lot of wards I can buy for more vison on the map. We also have to look at the fact the game in split in to sections... laneing and grouping phases... Laneing take 1 to 2 wards where grouping takes at least 3-4 wards.

If the new sightstone is bring supports into mid game with it.. then we are short on coverage on the wards... If the sightstone is going to be rush... then we're lossing items/gold for mid and late game.
Why? Because of how the game in split... laneing and grouping phase controls how many wards will be placed into the map. If 1 or 2 wards in enough for cover from a gank... then the sightstone never really pays off because the ward doesn't need to be replace/changed for about 3 mins.... if the laneing phase last for about 12 mins (-1.30 for the game to start) / 3 = 4-5 wards will be enough to cover it... if it takes almost 15 wards to pay off the sighstone... well you see my point now? You never will be able to pay it back and will behinde for a larg part of the game for getting the sightstone either early or mid game.

Not saying a support can't make up the cost.. it's just they will not have the coverage in sight right away like someone going wards only will atm.

TS adreast.dyndns.org if you want to talk about it more.

 
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Mradr ?? Senior Member
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02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFortress View Post
health is the most effective early game defensive stat.

You guys keep citing the role of gp10 in the whole game, but you're forgetting the short game.

You know, some lane screws up and you're getting your teeth kicked in at 10 minutes. Now, SS's defensive warding capability and HP isn't an option, because you need boots too. and wards. NOW. so you get to pick between **** regen or **** AP, so you can get a handful of wards, soonish, maybe.

Surrender at 20 is inevitable because your role is reliant on the game being longer than half an hour.

And if the other team has a sightstone, their vision is just going to be that much harder to knock off.

You are also forgetting the cost differents in health items... sightstone has a VERY poor cost to life raito... if I really want more life than I would buy a different item that gives me more life that I can build into something else later.

IF you follow my other post.... you know why... but as for the "other health items" I would just get a Ruby Crystal... and depending on my team, either go for a faster Aegis of the Legion or Locket of the Iron Solari.

TS adreast.dyndns.org if you want to talk about it more.

 
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TealNinje ?? Senior Member
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02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mradr View Post
Where are you just getting 475 from? It's 950 + 2 wards you have to buy to make up the missing time.

1100/75 = 15 wards to make up the differents...

Even if you rush it like that... you are still behinde because the enemy support just has to go minal wards + GP10 items and be WAY a head of you....
The item doesn't stop having health.

No matter what you do, you can't stop it from having health. It's still providing you 475 gold worth of health. The recipe for Sightstone is only 475 gold; ergo, the amount you're spending on infinite wards is 475. Not 1100. Not anything else. 475.

The moment you get Sightstone, your GP/10 increases by something like 8-9, outstripping a Philosopher's Stone start by ~3-4 GP/10. It costs only, what, 200 more? Yet provides more immediately useful stats (flat health). So let's assume that you get your Sightstone 2 minutes after your opponent gets their Philosopher's Stone. 2 minutes = 120 seconds. 5/10 = 60/120. They get 60 gold extra from their Philosopher's Stone. When you get your Sightstone, you have to keep your wards up frequently; after 4 minutes, you'll make up that 60 gold advantage the enemy support made, except they still have to buy the wards that you aren't, and will have to do so until they can afford Sightstone.

 
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Mradr ?? Senior Member
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02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
The item doesn't stop having health.

No matter what you do, you can't stop it from having health. It's still providing you 475 gold worth of health. The recipe for Sightstone is only 475 gold; ergo, the amount you're spending on infinite wards is 475. Not 1100. Not anything else. 475.

The moment you get Sightstone, your GP/10 increases by something like 8-9, outstripping a Philosopher's Stone start by ~3-4 GP/10. It costs only, what, 200 more? Yet provides more immediately useful stats (flat health). So let's assume that you get your Sightstone 2 minutes after your opponent gets their Philosopher's Stone. 2 minutes = 120 seconds. 5/10 = 60/120. They get 60 gold extra from their Philosopher's Stone. When you get your Sightstone, you have to keep your wards up frequently; after 4 minutes, you'll make up that 60 gold advantage the enemy support made, except they still have to buy the wards that you aren't, and will have to do so until they can afford Sightstone.
Except.. .they never have to go a sightstone... That thinking only works if they also go sightstone....You also have to add in the time differents that you never did... and you also have to add in the other GP item as it cost less than the sightstone right off... Yea you can't stop it providing you 475... but you still have to pay for the item... meaning it's 1100 for just getting "Free wards". If it was the only way to ward... then you would have a point, but you have to deal with the basic ward that only cost 75... Lets do a game... I been doing a few already and been up and up on items that other supports can't get yet that goes sightstone. Do I think it's right? Na, but I have done the math,... idk why people are simply skipping over it....

 
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TealNinje ?? Senior Member
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02-04-2013

Sightstone is the most efficient item in the game. The end.

Your math is meaningless; Philosopher's Stone also have to pay for the wards while you're saving up for Sightstone, so the extra 2 wards is literally nonsense.

I'm forced to conclude that you are, in fact, illiterate and a troll. Nothing you have said on the forums has convinced me otherwise.

 
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Mradr ?? Senior Member
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02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
Sightstone is the most efficient item in the game.
OH WOW LOL!!! TROLL right there:P you have no proof and yet you think you are right xD Look bring me proof that you are right and we'll talk. All you have said was, "I am right you are wrong," Bring my some REAL proof in how going sightstone is the "most efficient item in the game" then we'll talk. I have shown in math that I am right... that's my proof... break my proof... show me a replay... do something... it's not like we're in the 1980s anymore... DO SOMETHING to show me I am wrong... Other wise, yes, your "proof" is wrong and all you're saying is , "I am right you are wrong."

I'm also going to show I am right in a few more games... so far everyone going my route and not getting the sightstone anymore.... statically if I wasn't right... then I should be playing against more players going the sightstone route...so far 6/8 games have been going my route instead.

You don't even play support, so how would you even know xD
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/388052#masteries


Also I hate to do this... I am going to pull the rank card here just this once (just so I can end your trolling once and for all) ...
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/eune/22708384
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/25084180
bite me!

 
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TealNinje ?? Senior Member
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02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mradr View Post
OH WOW LOL!!! TROLL right there:P you have no proof and yet you think you are right xD Look bring me proof that you are right and we'll talk. All you have said was, "I am right you are wrong," Bring my some REAL proof in how going sightstone is the "most efficient item in the game" then we'll talk. I have shown in math that I am right... that's my proof... break my proof... show me a replay... do something... it's not like we're in the 1980s anymore... DO SOMETHING to show me I am wrong... Other wise, yes, your "proof" is wrong and all you're saying is , "I am right you are wrong."

I'm also going to show I am right in a few more games... so far everyone going my route and not getting the sightstone anymore.... statically if I wasn't right... then I should be playing against more players going the sightstone route...so far 6/8 games have been going my route instead.

You don't even play support, so how would you even know xD
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/388052#masteries


Also I hate to do this... I am going to pull the rank card here just this once (just so I can end your trolling once and for all) ...
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/eune/22708384
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/25084180
bite me!
You haven't shown anything real in math. You come up with meaningless numbers in order to win an argument. Basic math destroys your argument. You are illiterate and a troll.

 
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HereticSage ?? Senior Member
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02-05-2013

I don't know what all the whining is about. Although I don't play support often (I play adc most now, and believe me, I appreciate that what helps my support, helps me), once I am able to play again, I will continue to buy sightstone on support because it's the support "heart of gold". It basically is a heart of gold that costs a bit more but has more value by mitigating your costs instead of giving you gold. With just about every support item imaginable building out of gp/10s now, this is kind of a golden age for supports. The only supports that aren't really covered right now are tanky supports, and honestly, building gp/10s and then getting tanky items is its own reward (survivability to do your job better).

 
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Mradr ?? Senior Member
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02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
You haven't shown anything real in math. You come up with meaningless numbers in order to win an argument. Basic math destroys your argument. You are illiterate and a troll.
Show me that basic math then... my numbers are real game numbers base off facts of the game... where are your numbers comming from? I also have replays now ^^