North America - English

League of Legends Community

League of Legends Community > Feedback > Champion Feedback
[GAMEPLAY] Minions Game Balance

  • Page 3 of 3
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
 
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.
Zeyk ?? Member
09-07-2009

Prolonged minion damage is not negligible to a squishy hero in the early game. I think they're fine there, but maybe they should scale better as the game progresses. It's true that by midgame creeps are already completely meaningless except as a gold farm and diversion for towers.

 
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.
Cantor ?? Senior Member
This user has accepted the summoners code, click for more information
09-07-2009

I don't think it makes any sense for them to scale, whenever I'm playing a game of DotA and a message pops up saying "the creeps have grown stronger" I always think, why? what has my team done to deserve stronger minions? Besides, I agree with gutter's points, they aren't there to be dangerous. And even in end game, the towers do so much damage, that few heroes dare to solo a tower without the minions as cannon fodder. Since the tower AI always targets the minions first, they do their job.

 
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.
gutter ?? Senior Member
This user has accepted the summoners code, click for more information
09-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by roliax View Post
I do agree with the points that you made, but those points would not be taken away by buffing the creeps a little bit.

Based from my experiences in LoL, weak creeps allow for too much reckless playing. Before I go any further, I play games to be competitive and I look at things from a competitve point of view where skills and strategies matter in the smallest level.

In Dota:
Creeps are strong enough to hurt you that if you attempt to rush in and attack the enemy, you will take significant damages. Because of this, there is a WHOLE level of skills that a player need to develop to know how to harass properly. I.E. A ranged hero moves in closer by clicking the groud, issue an attack and move away right away.

There is also skills needed in timing a gank. Gank a hero who's standing behind the last few dying creeps of his wave. Or stun a hero running away from your creep wave so the creeps can get a few more hits.

In LoL:
Creeps are so weak that players are able to harass too freely. It takes away from the game by allowing harassment to not require as much skills. And when it comes to ganking in the mid game, a gank will always happen regardless of timing of creeps or position because they just are not a factor.

When I look at the creeps, I see them as a football's offensive linemen. They are there for your protection (in the early game) as well as gold, exp, etc. Take away the aspect of protection, and they are REALLY just free gold, exp, etc and nothing else. The difference in a player's skill should allow one to perform better than the other.

I don't want this to be DOTA and that's why I am playing LoL and not HoN, but I think that these are great points that allow a game to separate the noobs from the average player from the pro players. I.E. A noob who doesn't know how to last hit would generally do worse as an average player who does. But the average player who knows how to play the hero, get the right items but doesnt run any strat will lose to a pro who does. Similarly knowing when to harass and when to gank should require enough skill that it makes a difference.
First, again, you cannot just harass freely in LoL at the early levels because the minions make a difference.

Second, you want stronger minions because these weak ones cause "reckless" playing...If it's reckless shouldn't you be able to take advantage of it? If your opponent is being reckless in their attack that means they're not properly evaluating what they're doing and they're putting themselves in a dangerous position. This is better for YOU not them because you can take advantage of this and potentially score earlier kills.

Now, if you actually meant "aggressive" and not "reckless", then that's just how the developers (and myself, personally) want the game to be. They want to encourage offensive rather than defensive play. This offensive play helps games end more quickly and makes the early game more action-packed. If the minions were stronger then you'd likely see exactly what you consider "good" (and I consider "bad") about DotA, being that everyone would just be standing around not doing anything because it'd take complex timing and maneuvers just to attack the other player.

EDIT: Grammarz0rz

 
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.
roliax ?? Junior Member
09-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by gutter View Post
Now, if you actually meant "aggressive" and not "reckless", then that's just how the developers (and myself, personally) want the game to be. They want to encourage offensive rather than defensive play. This offensive play helps games end more quickly and makes the early game more action-packed. If the minions were stronger then you'd likely see exactly what you consider "good" (and I consider "bad") about DotA, being that everyone would just be standing around not doing anything because it'd take complex timing and maneuvers just to attack the other player.

EDIT: Grammarz0rz
I don't mind the aggressive nature of the game. There must be a balanced "fight or flight" mentality to the game. In the midgame, the creeps do not pose a threat and people do get RECKLESS and chase enemy heroes down to towers, to more heroes or to death.

With minions aside, in the overall picture if it is the strong intention of the developer that this game takes a little bit less skills, risk, timing and judgement to be able to effeciently harass and net a kill, then so be it. By taking away the aspects of the game that relies on the skill of the player and their judgement, it naturally emphasizes more on "getting the biggest item" or "getting the best hero" or "getting the most kills".

You see this trend in EM dota where the real skills don't shine as much: last hitting, lane controlling, coordinated ganks, ward placement, etc. I just don't want this game to end up "so easy that a caveman can do it". Yes, there should be a level that new players can start with, but at the same time there should be a level where deep competitive levels of play can develop. It's too early to tell, but at this point the overall game play is generally too reckless.

 
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.
gutter ?? Senior Member
This user has accepted the summoners code, click for more information
09-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by roliax View Post
I don't mind the aggressive nature of the game. There must be a balanced "fight or flight" mentality to the game. In the midgame, the creeps do not pose a threat and people do get RECKLESS and chase enemy heroes down to towers, to more heroes or to death.

With minions aside, in the overall picture if it is the strong intention of the developer that this game takes a little bit less skills, risk, timing and judgement to be able to effeciently harass and net a kill, then so be it. By taking away the aspects of the game that relies on the skill of the player and their judgement, it naturally emphasizes more on "getting the biggest item" or "getting the best hero" or "getting the most kills".

You see this trend in EM dota where the real skills don't shine as much: last hitting, lane controlling, coordinated ganks, ward placement, etc. I just don't want this game to end up "so easy that a caveman can do it". Yes, there should be a level that new players can start with, but at the same time there should be a level where deep competitive levels of play can develop. It's too early to tell, but at this point the overall game play is generally too reckless.
In any games with options and controlled/minimized luck, the game is only as easy as your competition.

So you say that people do in fact get reckless. And I already addressed this. How is this bad for you at all? As long as you can contain your own reckless urges it should be quite to your advantage to have other people playing recklessly on the other team. More reckless plays by them = more kills for you.

And it's not less skill or risk or timing or judgment...

Skill - To actually get the kill you need to have coordinated attacks with your team or surprise the opposing player. This seems to be the same as in DotA, except you can do it while minions are around. Doesn't mean it takes less skill though.

Risk - Against most decent players playing a semi-independent champion you do take a decided risk by attacking them. Sure, especially at the low levels, you can probably run away with your life intact if it doesn't go as planned, but then you have to heal up thus minimizing your options. And if you're up against two opponents in a lane, then there's a pretty real chance you could get killed if you go in for the attack. Furthermore you never really know who could be on their way for the opposing team if they actually stay there and fight you as long as there's at least one champion concealed by FOW. Again, this just means that you have to be more scared of the actual player than the ghouls/treants in the lane.

Timing - Good luck killing a decent player without good timing. Just because minions aren't there doesn't mean you don't need timing. And taking random pot shots, especially as a melee class, will probably net you more damage than you give to them early on.

Judgment - Well I guess that combines all of the above, doesn't it? Bad judgment ganking/harassing can lead to a respawn timer for yourself.

And I wouldn't call -EM necessarily analogous to LoL...-EM takes a game that's designed to be one way and gives you bountiful resources thus practically nullifying the effect of previous strategies. LoL is designed to be a certain way so it doesn't feel like cheat mode the way it is despite opinions on what does and doesn't constitute skill.

  • Page 3 of 3
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3