Four patches later and Riot has barely bothered to touch Trynd.
You undermine Trynd players.
As a jungler:
The recent Tryndamere changes were meant to make him more consistent. What this should have buffed, at the very least, was his jungling. Pre-patch, I could take my Trynd and give him a crit Marks and Quints rune page, a Brawler's Glove and 2 red pots and send him into the jungle at level 1 with 34% crit; then as I stacked Bloodlust I would receive both AD and bonus crit damage. Now I have to wait until his Fury bar is about 1/3 full before I reach that amount of 34% crit. What's more is I'm not receiving any bonus AD for crits or bonus crit damage for crits either. If I want bonus AD I have to get myself very low on health which is something I don't like to do while jungling and even less if I'm being counter jungled. It sucks.
The other side of this that slapped Trynd right in the face is the healing nerf. By not allowing the CD of Bloodlust to scale down while also increasing the amount of hits it takes to get a "full stack" as well as nerfing the healing output, you've made his jungle much, much weaker. I don't care if Spinning Slash has no health cost now, I wasn't killing jungle creeps with Spinning Slash; if anything, I only put a single point in there so I could level Mocking Shout and be an effective jungle ganker.
Phreak, the more I read your initial responses to the communities feelings on the Trynd changes, the more I feel like you're either joking or trolling all of us. By what definition did he get buffed? From here the math says that his damage is lower, that his healing is lower and that two of his CDs are longer.
You owe the Trynd playing community a much better response to their disappointment with the new Tryndamere than "we'll see".
As an AD carry:
It's a very bad sign when picking up Infinity Edge over AS gear hurts you more than it helps you. That Fury bar takes an astronomical amount of time to build up without early AS and I'm talking at least a 1.5 attack speed.
Why, why oh why would I choose to play this AS/Crit/AD super dependent champ with no controllable steroids over Master Yi who has a big AD and AS steroid I can pop when I need it? Their builds are practically the same now anyway.
What other AD carry must wait on so many variables before they've reached their damage potential? Really, Riot, this is absurd.
- He needs a full Fury bar to get his crit steroid.
- He needs to be at 1 health to get his full AD steroid.
Tryndamere, the Barbarian King?
More like Tryndamere, the Little Dog who has to Jump Through Hoops Hoping to Keep up with Master Yi and Good Luck Catching up with the Ranged AD Carries.
I've made thread after thread after thread about Tryndamere. Many others have made thread after thread after thread about Tryndamere. The best responses we've received so far tell us a few things:
"You're underestimating healing for 70 health in the late game off your Q."
"You're underestimating saving scraps of health when you use your abilities now."
"You're underestimating having 35% bonus crit chance at full health."
"We'll see how it goes."
- You're underestimating how crippling it is to chop out Tryndamere's bonus crit damage from his "stacks" and replacing it with something that has extreme diminishing returns late game.
- You're underestimating how crippling it is to move his AD bonus off of his "stacks".
- You're underestimating how crippling it is to cause Tryndamere to build up even more "stacks" before he receiving the full benefits of this nerfed bonus.
- You're underestimating how crippling it is to lose your ability to gain these "stacks" if you choose to consume them.
- You're underestimating how crippling it is that your "stacks" mean nothing when pushing a turret.
- You're underestimating how crippling it is to put a longer CD on pre rank 5 Spinning Slash.
- You're underestimating how crippling it is to put a longer CD on ranks 2, 3, 4 and 5 of Bloodlust.
- You're underestimating how crippling it is to cut the Bloodlust heal by 1/4.
The next words out of a red regarding Tryndamere should be nothing less than "We're going to fix it."
Keep in mind that Tryndamere's 36% bonus crit damage was cut out of his kit with no compensation. That alone is enough to drastically lower his damage output; these other changes only hurt him further.
- +35% crit chance at full health -
- Free Spinning Slash + Mocking Shout -
You've also drastically nerfed the base damage of Spinning Slash. Ranks 3, 4 and 5 deal 20, 40 and 60 less damage than before. That's a giant base damage nerf and the new 1.0 bonus AD ratio doesn't balance it out:
Trynd's base damage - 117 AD
Bloodthirster fully stacked - 100 AD
Last Whisper - 40 AD
Infinity Edge - 85 AD
Total - 342 AD x .5 = 171
Old rank 5 damage of Spinning Slash - 240
240 + 171 = 411 Spinning Slash damage
With Trynd's base damage removed:
Bloodthirster fully stacked - 100 AD
Last Whisper - 40 AD
Infinity Edge - 85 AD
Total - 225 bonus AD
New rank 5 damage of Spinning Slash - 180
180 + 225 = 405 Spinning Slash damage
Even with a full build, it's a damage nerf. The lost damage is amplified by every slot that Trynd doesn't devote to large amounts of AD.
- Healing with zero Fury -
The healing values for the ranks of Bloodlust:
Consumes all Fury to heal Tryndamere for 30-80/40-135/50-190/60-245/70-300 depending on how much Fury was consumed.
I've put the amounts that Trynd will heal himself for at zero Fury in bold font. This means that at rank 5 Bloodlust Trynd will heal himself for 70 health with zero Fury stored. I could heal myself for more than that after one crit on a jungle creep or minion with the old Bloodlust stacks. That's less than the old cost of rank 5 Spinning Slash.
Let's do some math here:
Under the old Bloodlust system critically striking or killing a unit granted a stack of Bloodlust. Critically striking a unit with no stacks up granted 2 stacks. Critically striking and killing a unit with no stacks up granted 3 stacks total. This means it took a maximum of 4 crit killshots to reach 8 stacks of Bloodlust and 7 crits if you didn't kill anything.
4 crit killshots = 8 stacks = 400 healing
4 crit killshots = 400 healing
1 crit killshots = 100 healing
With crits alone:
7 crits = 8 stacks = 400 healing
7 crits = 400 healing
1 crit = 57 healing
Under the new Fury based system, striking an enemy grants 5 rage, critically striking or killing an enemy grants 10 rage and doing both a crit and a kill shot will net you 20 rage. This means that criting 10 times will get you 100 rage and one shotting 5 minions will get you 100 rage.
5 crit killshots = 100 rage = 300 healing
5 crit killshots = 300 healing
1 crit killshot = 60 healing
That was assuming you were one shotting all those minions, heres for just getting stings of crits
10 crits = 100 rage = 300 healing
10 crits = 300 healing
1 crit = 30 healing
That's a difference in the range of healing per crit of 70. The healing value of a single crit was cut by 48%. I'm glad you had the decency to put a healing floor on the ability. Oh, you've also raised the CD by 4 seconds.
So, your points were that the power of +35% crit chance at full health, free Spinning Slash + Mocking Shout and healing with zero Fury would make Trynd stronger. The results of my math show that:
- The new passive crit from Fury stacking is a definite damage loss over the old passive AD and crit bonus damage from the old Bloodlust stacks. This is a nerf.
- The free Mocking Shout and Spinning Slash do not compensate for the increased CD on early Spinning Slash rank nor for the damage loss on Spinning Slash before Trynd can build heavily into AD which in turn hurts his farming quite a lot.
- The healing from the new Fury system via Bloodlust is tragically smaller per crit than the old Bloodlust stacks system.
Suggested tweaks to improve the new Tryndamere:
Move Trynd's scaling AD bonus to his Fury bar.
Give Trynd back his scaling bonus crit damage and have it scale up as his health drops.
Activating that bonus AD doesn't feel good because it means you're almost dead. That bonus AD also doesn't make the impact I would expect it to when I need it most (when I'm sitting at 1 health during my ult). Furthermore, having a full Fury bar with a complete build feels underwhelming with just bonus crit chance; that late in the game I'd like to have something that will really up my damage output. I feel that causing Trynd's crits to hit harder as his health drops will feel really good for the player and make Trynd a strong carry choice.
I have entertained the idea that you simply don't want Trynd to have scaling crit damage. If this is the case I would suggest that you still move the bonus AD to scale with his Fury bar and change passive on Bloodlust to grant him bonus AS as his health drops. This will still make Trynd feel better than he does now and really give the image of "I'm too angry to die!" desperate swinging of his sword to take as many foes with him as possible.
The wall! It grows! Responses from Phreak as well as my responses to him:
Responses from Phreak can be found on pages 14, 17,18 & 23
You're right on a lot of this. His healing off of Q and the damage on spinning slash are both going up next patch (subject to change of course). These were unnecessarily too low and we overestimated the gain from having those spells be free.
One thing I think you're screwing up here, though, is keeping the same rune page and masteries despite his core stats changing. Using attack speed and armor penetration increases your DPS compared to crit runes because there's no more crit damage. Using attack speed also increases your basic Fury generation. It also makes you less RNG dependent because you can get screwed out of just never critting the golems with a 34% crit build, whereas here I will always hit for 70 damage at about .85 attacks per second as my Fury builds and I'm able to consistently heal if I need to. Specifically on your Infinity Edge case, if I just go AS reds and get Berserker's Greaves, maybe a Youmuu's, I have plenty of attack speed to support Infinity Edge. It's all in the build.
tl;dr: A lot of what you say is right, and we're re-buffing some of those numbers because we overcompensated. However, not changing your build is silly when core stats change, and his jungle is actually still quite excellent plus more consistent.
In regards to the rune page. For the purposes of making a fair comparison of Tryndamere before and after the patch, I ran several games with my old page and build to get a feel of how different he's become. What I immediately noticed was an almost extreme reliance on attack speed to support the Fury bar. One of my biggest problems with the new Trynd is how gigantic the Fury bar feels in comparison to how the old Bloodlust stacks. Lately I've been running CrC marks and AS quints as well as grabbing Zerk Boots over Mercs, which works better. However, I do not like feeling dependent on Zerk Boots if only because I need as much AS in as few slots as possible.
Another thing that I really dislike is that I find Tryndamere much more effective if I grab Infinity Edge after Black Cleaver + PD or Stark's. Maybe it's wrong of me to not like building in this particular order, but, frankly, if I wanted to build like AD Yi, I'd play AD Yi.
These issues bring me to what I feel is Tryndamere's most ****ing kit design as a carry. That design being his variable steroids. Tryndamere has two stat steroids in his kit (crit chance and AD) and both of those steroids need to be built up and the AD steroid is nearly completely outside of Tryndamere's control. I understand that removing his bonus crit damage was a conscious decision for the sake of keeping him balanced if you buff him. However, bonus crit damage was one of his steroids and it made him effective as a carry. It feels very much that you took away an essential piece of his kit and did nothing to put something else in it's place.
The variable nature of his steroids makes him frustrating. As a player, you know that you have access to bonus crit chance and bonus AD in his kit, but holding onto the bonus crit means to not use his Q and acquiring the AD means to be very near death. In short, the steroids in his kit do not always feel accessible and the AD bonus especially feels like it's lying behind a locked door with a key that's at the bottom of a molten pool of lava guarded by fire snakes (god **** fire snakes!). While this could also be a very real complaint of the old Tryndamere, there were a few differences about the old Trynd that made it much less of an inconvenience:
1. Old Tryndamere could stack up Bloodlust faster and with less AS in his build than the new Trynd can build Fury.
2. Old Tryndamere received the bonuse AD and Crit damage from the Bloodlust stacks. The importance of this is that AD and bonus crit damage scale much better on a full build than bonus crit chance. Crit chance has a cap where more isn't going to help you; AD and bonus crit damage are always more effective in larger amounts. Being able to enter a fight with these buffs was an extreme asset.
Thanks again for your response and I'm sorry for anyone in this thread who's giving you an overly hard time (as funny as it may be). Hope you come back to read these points.
Pretty valid point. Here's my somewhat weak counter-point.
Old Tryndamere had the rest of his kit fairly weak because of the tons of crit damage. There was no way around it. He had crit damage, the rest of him was weak.
In this build, you've forsaken all durability, regeneration, attack speed, armor pen, etc in order to achieve significant crit damage. You've chosen to go gimmicky. Similarly, any champion in the game can have that same Crit Damage build. With those same masteries, he can have 10% crit chance at level 1 with Brawler's Gloves. Maybe this is the "new OP." I guess we'll have to see . However, it's no longer unique to Tryndamere. This is much less problematic.
Another point brought up is "consistency." Here's our take on it.
There are two things that scale: Crit Chance and Attack Damage. Previously, you could have your +40 AD and significant crit damage.
Now, take new Tryndamere.
I challenge anyone to test the 4 cases of Full/Empty Health/Fury and find one where old Tryndamere has lower standard deviation in damage dealt across 5 seconds.
Phreak, glad for another analysis from Riot but there are a LOT of holes in this response.
You begin by saying that Tryndamere's bonus crit damage was removed so that the rest of his kit could be strengthened. You SAID that, but it's not what happened. At the same time his bonus crit damage was removed, the following was changed in his kit:
- Cut his healing and increased the CD on his heal and increased the time it takes him to accumulate the heal.
- Reduced the base damage on Spinning Slash while also increasing the CD on the first four ranks.
- Left the functionality of Mocking Shout unchanged.
- Left the functionality of Undying Rage unchanged.
I fail to see the compensation that was made for the loss of what was a very important part of Trynd's carry role.
Also, your examples are extremely skewed because they include very little detail. If the assumption is that both champs have no build, then the carry will lose. This is the nature of carries; they're meant to scale with gear. So if Trynd is pitted against Taric who has both a stun and a heal and a shield then Trynd will easily lose through attrition. It's a terrible example. On the other hand, if both champs are allowed to use an optimal build, then Trynd won't have variable crit chance and Taric won't stand a chance. This is also due to the nature of carries to scale very well with gear. If you 1v1 a carry with a full build you will and are supposed to lose despite what your personal build may be.
What's most shocking to me is that you're attempting to say that swapping AD for CrC will result in more consistent damage. You must be joking. In what game can you swap a finite stat like AD for a variable stat like CrC and come out with more consistent damage? That's ridiculous. I find your second list of examples as equally ridiculous as the first because they are impossibly unrealistic and ignore factors such as the loss of a full AD bonus while at full health. Your fourth example baffles me in its conclusion. Do you mean to suggest that players could not gauge how much power they had with full Bloodlust stacks and the AD they had gained for acquiring them? In what way is it better to offer a variable stat like CrC while he is at full health as opposed to a finite damage boost like AD? I have to again ask how this is in any way making him more consistent.
Challenge accepted: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1042705
Skarner Patch Release Notes; Tryndamere Buffs 8/9/11:
Riot just released Tryndamere buffs and I'm fairly certain it's just one big joke to them:
Bloodlust will now heal for 2.65 up from 2.3 per point of Fury.
What does that mean? That means you now get a whopping 35 extra healing on a full bar of Fury. It's worth mentioning that the AD ratio and base damage buff of Spinning Slash is quite nice, but not at all what Trynd needed. He needed the CD on lower ranks of Spinning Slash lowered; this, honest to God, looks like expert trolling.
Other great threads on the new Tryndamere: