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Trinity Force equivalent for Defense

 
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Autocthon ?? Senior Member
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04-17-2012

Defenses don;t need a TForce. There is no amount of arguing in the world that could actually end up with them being proven to need one.

Carries are supposed to effortlessly stomp enemies that don;t blow them up fast enough. And even then half the time tanks are tanky enough to last long enough to stun and make sure the carry dies with team intervention.

 
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Peligrad ?? Senior Member
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04-17-2012

An item par stat-wise with triforce but with defensive stats would not be balanced.

Triforce provides more stats / gold than any other item in the game, but it is balanced because those stats are diverse enough where any one champion has trouble fully utilizing them all.

Conversely, any champion can use all 3 defensive stats (MR, Armor, HP) to their full benefit. The item would not balance with other options.

 
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axesandspears ?? Senior Member
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04-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuther View Post
Not really. Game's gotta end soon. Carries are how that happens.

There is also the possibility this item makes carries even more powerful, since they can totally use it. They'll have everything but defence... and with it, they do have defence!

Also, are you sure you used "penultimate" right? Penultimate means "just under ultimate".
Actually, many of the defensive item nerfs were aimed directly at carries using 1 slot defenses or bruisers that could get away with the same thing (pre-nerf Xin Jhao).

Defenses are supposed to take up multiple slots to be effective, that's just the way it is, and it is why no large tier 3 catch all item exists that provides all 3 survivability stats (Aegis is tier 2, GA is also tier 2 but expensive for the passive).

Real defensive champions are much better off with items like Frozen Heart that provide strong defenses and stats they need, but must be build alongside other defensive items to be effective. Bruiser items like Maw of Mortius that involve a mix of defense and offense are also very helpful. More choices of either item-archetype would be much more beneficial to defense-focused champions like tanks and bruisers than a catch-all item.

The op's intention to make a catch-all item is misplaced, for such a thing would only break ranged ad carries, or be unwieldy (yet still overpowered) on his target champions.

 
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bahamutkaiser ?? Senior Member
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04-17-2012

Well firstly, just because It's top tier item doesn't mean it offers total defense, 60 armor, 40 Mr and 300 Health are hardly unbeatable stats, by itself it is a great defensive boost, but its value is divided up in variety exactly like Trinity Force so your not getting all your value in defense, cooldown, mana regen, mana amount. Tenacity and Health Recovery contribute to survival in alternate ways, but they arnt armor health or MR.

Penultimate, it has good armor and MR honestly low Health, It's clearly half as heavy as Frozen Heart or Randuin for physical damage and AA reduction, and almost half as much MR as FoN, I'm not even gonna bother with a health comparison. It isn't superior in any of these effects... Penultimate, I appreciate your criticism, but this is not a grammar class, try to address my idea and not my writing, especially not my spelling, sorry, this is typed on a cell phone touch screen, bringing up grammar is purely irrelevant to the items viability.

So A: the item has less focused defensive value than any tier 3 item, it would still take additional defensive items to tank.
B: it is not optimized for every champion, wile TF is in fact completely utilized by many champions especially since most attack champions have some mana and some spare AP ratio, wile this actually has 2 mana effects which are even less valuable to manaless champions, as compared to TF which only has mana amount. The Idea was for there to be enough value so it would be an acceptable purchase even if you didnt have mana, and it is a stretch, giving mana champions a decisive advantage with the item. I perfer manaless champions, but I don't have any trouble giving mana champions an advantage there.
And C, wile it has a lot of bonus stats, it hardly has more defense than a GA, wile champions like carries may want to adopt this, they will get alot of additional benefits, but it woln't have the hard survival value of coming back to life no matter how much damage is dealt. Between the cost, which could diminish a carries build, and clearly "Penultimate" defensive stats, carries would have to choose between having a little more substance and alot of additional utility, or a little more substance and a resurrection, or get multiple defense items and be less of a carry.

Personally I find all three of those options acceptable, carry either has a lot of utility and some defense but can still be killed just fine, has some defense and comes back no matter how hard you hit them, or buys multiple defense items and participates as a balanced member of the team instead of stacking mostly offensive items. By the time the carry buys 2 very expensive defensive items it will either be way past late game, or extremely delay their offensive items.

On the other hand, Bruisers, Tanks, Melee Carries and Supports would all have a great defensive item that mixes in the majority of their utility so they have enough item slots to fill damage and complete defense into their build.

Beyond that, I don't like short games, saying that a late game penultimate defense item which can't be finished til late game shouldn't exist because carries are suppose to finish games fast, even though that's a preference, and finishing the game fast would preclude this from being effectively used, is kinda of backward in so many ways it's spinning... It is still an almost purely defensive item, and at such a cost it will delay any forms of damage early on, and be a huge investment either way. The only champions who could rush this item and still fulfill their role are supports and tanks, Bruisers are still gonna have to buy offense somewhere along the way.

Dislike it all you want, but you'll have to come up with something a little more logical to dissuade me beyond, "I like games short", "TF doesn't optimize on most champions but this does", even though this clearly has more unusable stats for many champions, "carries can buy too much defense", when its expensive to build, isn't an impenetrable defense, and doesn't completely eclipse any existing defensive item directly, and wouldn't even offer high defense without another item, which can be done many alternate ways with 2 items. What else was there? The meaning of "Penultimate", and let's see, nobody bust out the gold calculator yet? Astonishing...

 
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axesandspears ?? Senior Member
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04-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by bahamutkaiser View Post
What else was there? The meaning of "Penultimate", and let's see, nobody bust out the gold calculator yet? Astonishing...
5414.87 gold ignoring the Tenacity and 25% increased healing effects (which are both ridiculous on a high tier item btw).

Currently, nothing gives that kind of gold value for the slot. Either way, this is irrelevent in this case because defenses are not balanced around a 1-size-fits-all item. The concept itself is imbalanced, which is precisely why nobody was looked at the gold-value nor cared about it.

 
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JustMyBassCannon ?? Senior Member
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04-17-2012

Reason 1: Defense is supposed to be a reactive build. You don't build MR for DPS, and you don't build Armor for Casters.
Reason 2: There are already several multiple stat defense items (MR/HP, Armor/HP, Armor/MR, Armor/MR/HP) so you can build whatever you need.
Reason 3: Trinity Force, despite being an amazing offense item, is rarely built on even half of the DPS champions. A defense version of TForce would literally be useful on anyone if they were a focus target at all.

 
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bahamutkaiser ?? Senior Member
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04-17-2012

Defense is reactive, but only because opponents can over invest in one type of damage, naturally they will invest in all kinds of damage, and naturally you'll buy all forms of defense, question is, can you fit a complete defense, offense, and utility solution in your build, and can it compete with other final builds, the answer is ranged carries are totally eclipsing many roles from even being on the team, not just being best, so there is a clear need for better defensive options.

There are many defensive items, but most of them are partial, they often don't fit enough value in less space so you end up filling several slots with defensive and suedo defensive items which end up having a low total value. This provides a high end investment which fits part of your defense and most of your utility into one item, it also allows you alot more equipment combinations.

Whether everyone who benefits from Trinity Force builds it is just a matter of item diversity, it is still a superior item for them that they usually build away from for cost efficiency, which is completely applicable here as well. As for being almost universally useful in comparison to TF, that much is true, that doesn't mean players woln't aim for FH, BV, over or with this, but defensive options are very limited and restrictive, you can try to patch in things like wriggles, Atmas, Maw and Mercury Treds, and in the end you end up with a lukewarm defense, lukewarm offense, and used up almost all of your item slots. It seems fine at first, but in the late game your build is rather weak, and swapping out items for only slightly more powerful ones wile losing a lot of gold in the process is even more burden. Topping that all off with the fact that your build can hardly fit defense and offense, you have next to no room for utility.

It is pretty much an every mans item, anyone can benefit from it, its a long ways to build towards, but it not only doesn't eclipse the value of more supportive equipment like FH or specialized equipment like BV, it offers alot more defensive item combinations, coupling extremely well with Aegis and GA, as well as complementing some suedo defensive items effectively.

 
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Nea De Penserhir ?? Senior Member
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04-17-2012

Yet again. Aegis. It is the Trinity Force of Defense. It gives comparable health, compared to Triforce it gives similar armor and MR to the ad/ap provided. It also gives +8 damage.

It also provides a bonus to your allies.

That is pretty dang good gold efficiency. You can't beat it. Hybrid defenses at a bargain, at the amount where on most champions it nails you to the 100 resist bench mark. I consider the sweet spot about 150, which you easily get by building additional items that you're likely going to use on a tank, support, or Fighter.

Carries already get Guardian Angel. They do not require yet another way to make them harder to kill; The counter play to a Carry is killing them before they kill your team. They do not need item options to make this harder and less reliant on good positioning and team protection.

 
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Vuther ?? Senior Member
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04-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by bahamutkaiser View Post
Well firstly, just because It's top tier item doesn't mean it offers total defense, 60 armor, 40 Mr and 300 Health are hardly unbeatable stats, by itself it is a great defensive boost, but its value is divided up in variety exactly like Trinity Force so your not getting all your value in defense, cooldown, mana regen, mana amount. Tenacity and Health Recovery contribute to survival in alternate ways, but they arnt armor health or MR.

Penultimate, it has good armor and MR honestly low Health, It's clearly half as heavy as Frozen Heart or Randuin for physical damage and AA reduction, and almost half as much MR as FoN, I'm not even gonna bother with a health comparison. It isn't superior in any of these effects... Penultimate, I appreciate your criticism, but this is not a grammar class, try to address my idea and not my writing, especially not my spelling, sorry, this is typed on a cell phone touch screen, bringing up grammar is purely irrelevant to the items viability.
I dunno, benefiting from all the defensive stats and thus being an always excellent choice in every game to everyone sounds pretty ultimate to me.

Technically, I think this discussion over penultimate is semantics. *whistles innocently*

On topic to the item, I see no reason to change what I've already said about this concept. A one-stop defensive item everyone would want is a concept I disagree with since being desirable to everyone would make it more boring than boots, and it would throw a huge upset into the current squishiness of carries, who carry games like no other champions, but still remain quite afraid of a strong wind blowing in their direction. I do not think giving them a way to alleviate that would be a good idea.

 
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bahamutkaiser ?? Senior Member
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04-18-2012

The carry concern is unfounded, this isn't going to make anybody unkillable, and GA will still be stronger for carries, and cheaper, which would cut down almost the same damage, but not have a second chance, or cost as little.

And just because it is a catch all defense doesn't mean it will be first or only or always built. Dedicated tanks will likely get more supportive pieces, and supports are just as likely to do the same, anybody choosing this item will take a serious set back in offensive power, carries probably can't afford it nor optimize it, wile Bruisers and AP carries would have to seriously consider how and when to afford this since it offers almost no offensive value.

Players don't even build trinity force over phantom dancer even though its usually a better item, simply because it is a stretch in cost. Building a super expensive defensive item will be a luxury, they will probably try to attain parts of it than wait til they fill out other items before finishing.

Semantics and carry concerns aside, and I did address carries already, it is what it is, a way to fit more into one slot, it has a fraction of the defense of most comparable items and is super expensive, it pays out in bundling alot of utility, not being the strongest defensive item in the game, unlike a Triforce.