I've seen a lot of discussion and theorycraft regarding when it's the most beneficial to build TBC for carries. Well, despite all the math, the answer is: never.

TBC is a horrible item dps-wise, the window when this item is better than a Brutalizer and a Last Whisper is too low and a carry should never build one, doesn't matter against who you are matched. But something people don't see to take into account is that TBC stacks are applied to the target, thus anyone attacking that same target will benefit from the armor penetration.

Bruisers like Renekton, Irelia or Xin Zhao are perfect so carry TBC, because they apply the 3 stacks fast and last long enough so the rest of the team, including the AD carry, can benefit from the armor debbuf.

When playing Miss Fortune, the first item I get is Black Cleaver (yep, even before Infinity Edge). It's a lot cheaper and improves the damage of her Q ability too (unlike Infinity Edge, which only contributes it's AD portion to that.) The Auto/Q/Auto combination with her is nigh-instantaneous, applies all 3 stacks, and doesn't waste any time so you can also chain-cast your Make it Rain ability, slowing them enough to keep hitting them.

Don't think the item is just for bruisers. It's actually a better first item for anyone than Infinity Edge, if you are able to build it fast enough.

I am so confused, you said its never good to build it then you say its good to build it on these characters, your just contradicting yourself.

in my eyes, these are the conditions that needs to be met before buying TBC

1. does your abilities scale with AD and/or primarinly Auto attack based damage.
2. does your character require increased attack speed.
3. is your champion capable of applying all 3 stacks of the debuff quickly under 2 seconds.
4. would your team benefit from the armor reduction?

if I answered yes to the first 3, i'll get it within my builds somewhere. if I answered yes to all 3 and the 4th one as well, i'll get it as my first item. simple as that.

my best advice for u is.......

read part 1 of black cleaver vs last whisper
http://clgaming.net/forums/board39-r...hisper-part-1/

and part 2
http://clgaming.net/forums/board39-r...hisper-part-2/

there's a TL: DR section too, so if u want to see that then goto part 2 and read the TL: DR

here's my own opinion.
champs that rely on CDR should run other sources of armor pen/reduction. like brutalizer or last whisper.
champs that are usually auto attacking would benefit more from atk speed and reductions go for TBC.

also... my opinion in bruisers like renekton carring it is kinda.... "dafuq"
as bruisers should be there to deal very high bursts of damage then tank things out as an offtank, wait for cooldowns and bruise again. tbc doesnt give them the armor and hp for them to do that =S so dont get it
items like: frozen mallet, youmuu, trinity, wit's, warmog, bloodthirster, atma's, LAST WHISPER, maw of malmortious, hextech gunblade, guardian angel, force of nature.
make it so that if u do need armor reduction pick up last whisper... and leave tbc for the AD carries who will focus 1 unit one at a time.

Black Cleaver works very well on Wukong. While it somewhat makes his %shred on Q "weaker", the total amount shredded is pretty devastating, and further increases the value of any flat armor penetration your team may currently have. The only hang up is that Wu rarely gets to build many BF recipes, because he needs to be durable

It's always better on tanky DPS, their lack of item space means they can't stack high damage the same way a carry does, so having damage, AS and armor shread all in one combines for more value than on a carry who can specialize the maximum value of each stat on seperate items.

It also makes them more difficult to duel because many of them have higher defense than their target, so their flat reduction will serve better than %, but most of all, no matter how you factor the damage, TBC has supportive value, if the tanky DPS can latch onto a target and shread their armor, their carry can benefit from it too. In the end TBC can not be directly compared because it does not have armor pen, it has armor shread, that means everyone on your team will deal more physical damage.

On someone like Shyvana who has additional value in AS, and the ability to double proc directly after an attack to max shread instantly, it is a far more favorable item them LW.

When to post your crackpot bull**** ideas on the forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samyazza I've seen a lot of discussion and theorycraft regarding when it's the most beneficial to completely disagree with everyone else who ever played the game. Well, despite all the math, the answer is: never.

Last Whisper>Black Cleaver after 113 Armor. However, you can take into account % reduction on your champion's abilities (which make the values 161 for Wukong, 132 for Kayle and Shyvana, and 144 for Jarvan). You also want to take into account any flat Armor Pen you have, because buying Last Whisper makes 40% of all your other Pen/Reduc stats useless.

Also there are specific champions where Black Cleaver is especially acceptable. Renekton can proc 3 hits instantly with his W, Shyvana can proc 3 hits in a row using her Q, Vayne is supposed to land multiple hits on the same target anyway, any champion with an auto attack reset can do well with it...

It is more situational than Last Whisper, but it's also likely to be more valuable unless your opponent's packing >170 Armor.