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Ciderhelm's impressions on Darius

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Khäosmaker ?? Senior Member
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05-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
Hi everybody, CertainlyT here.

First off, I don't think anyone's elo is relevant to this discussion, for a few reasons:
First, we have a populist design mentality -- LoL isn't for the top 1%, it's for everyone to have a great time playing;
Second, one's elo is not a perfect measure of one's understanding of the game. We observe that a lot of top players succeed due to amazing mechanics.

As to Darius being a toxic influence because he deprives his teammates of kills, I think that point has some merit. We discussed it internally several times during Darius's development cycle. We concluded that the benefits of an ultimate like his (in terms of sheer epicness and diversity amongst ultimates) was worth the cost, even if it did "steal the spotlight" from teammates on occasion. It is not something we intend to put on many future champions, perhaps none ever again. We justified our decision to give Darius his ult on a few factors:

1. Our community is continually maturing. Players have the savvy to look beyond KDA to assess their contribution to their team's success. They feel good when they heal their teammates, make defensive plays, coordinate their CC, etc. We think Darius players will know that it wasn't solely their own efforts that got them that double kill and Darius teammates will know that it wasn't just Darius doing damage in a team fight.
2. Once Darius has a few months under his belt and his popularity inevitably wanes a bit, this will be less of an issue since you'll have fewer teammates as Darius on a per game basis. Most posts from those frustrated by Darius are those who seem to be seeing him game after game after game. It's important to think about game health not in terms of momentary snapshots, but long term.
3. Darius's eventual role in team fight scenarios is fundamentally altruistic, probably in the mid-field using Apprehend+Crippling Strike to peel diving bruisers for his ranged AD/mages and follow up on those champs' DPS with an armor ignoring finisher. He doesn't have the defensive steroids or the mobility to leap straight onto enemy carries in the same way Irelia, Jarvan, or Jax can. Even as a tanky man, he is a dps soak -- enemies are encouraged to burn him down to stop his kill chain, shifting focus from squishy targets.
4. Darius is a great candidate for aura items. He benefits dramatically from Reverie for the burst of MS so he can position himself for that speed boosting Q, Randuin's for the slow to let him manage his Crippling Strike a bit better, and Aegis of the Legion for the balanced defensive stats it gives. That gold he "KS'd" can and should be put to good use. I don't think you will see many Bloodthirster wielding Darius's in 1-2 months. I know I feel at ease when the guy that grabbed the kills in an early teamfight puts that gold toward an item designed to help us win the second (Internally, the running joke about me is that I insist the first team to buy an Aegis wins).
5. Darius doesn't just kill steal -- his ult is a lot of the power on his kit and contributes to sealing a great many kills where the enemy might otherwise have escaped or continued dealing damage for some time. I think from all the "Darius OP" threads we can agree that he certainly holds his own on the battlefield at the moment. If his ult was some sort of Blitzcrank passive that automatically zapped any champion below 200 health, then you'd have a stronger point.

I hope that clarifies our reasoning for Darius's ult a bit. This game is a complicated and wonderful beast. If every champion's kit was hardwired to have their kill total reflect their total contribution to kills, it would require pruning a lot of abilities from the game (all % missing health effects, mundo's cleaver too!, etc.). The resultant lack of diversity would be a loss to our players as a whole.
First of all, I'm assuming youre the guy that made Darius (the avatar hints at that), so awesome job on the champ, he's some of the most fun I've had in this game after 9 months of playing.

Secondly, I completely agree with everything you said and I think this post needs to be stickied to the from page. The flood of straight up Darius QQ on the forums is insane and completely unwarranted.

 
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Shampu ?? Senior Member
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05-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
Even as a tanky man, he is a dps soak -- enemies are encouraged to burn him down to stop his kill chain, shifting focus from squishy targets.
and this is why he is OP

 
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Sol Collective ?? Member
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05-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
It's anti-fun to be silenced by soraka, but we decided that was worth it. It's also potentially team inefficient for Wish to give her a share of assist gold. Fun is always a balancing act. Gold distribution as a strategic decision will always be an issue that needs to be dealt with through team communication.

I am being a little brief here because I am on vacation and typing from a iPad, not because I'm trying to be snide. I respect your and cider helm's point, but in the end we thought darius's ult was worth implementing.

Ps I also dislike bike shorts.
Look, man, I don't mean to pick apart points here, but I'm going to anyways.

Giving Soraka assist gold for using wish in a teamfight is incomparable to Darius chain-stealing kills. Soraka getting an assist does not take away any significant gold value; however, Darius ult creates a toxic distribution. Intentionally or not, Darius is far more likely to get the bulk of kills (and therefore, gold from kills) than not due to the reset nature of his ult, and just assuming that someone from (most likely) solo queue to be altruistic when using his ult is honestly ridiculous.

EDIT: I phrased that poorly, but I think that the decision between "Use my ult for the good of the team, and potentially not get it refreshed thereby reducing my effectiveness" and "Use the mechanics of my ability to their greatest affect, even if that means getting every single kill" has a remarkably pre-determined answer in solo queue.

This is besides the point of having a true damage ability when he ALREADY has passive armor penetration, when combined with runes + masteries gives him an almost redundant advantage (I get the point was to give an advantage against bruisers, but imagine giving Vayne passive armor pen along with her Silver bolts proc. Yeah, kinda ridiculous.)

Darius' entire set of abilities seems like there are far too many advantages crammed into one champion. Why make the bleed effect do magic damage? Why make his W do % of total damage, rather than just plain AD scaling (and on that same note, why make the cooldown potentially 3 seconds before factoring in CDR)? If his disadvantage is mobility, but his strength is getting in close to targets, why is every one of his abilities greater than auto attack range by nearly double (Not to mention how that makes his ult balanced while Cho has to deal with some severe pathing issues from size), on top of the fact he gets a ranged hook and a slow, and Frozen Mallet seems pretty core on him?

I don't mean to say that your champion design is bad, because the basic ideas of these abilities and the core concept is incredibly interesting to me, but I am seeking to understand the logic behind some of these number decisions, and please forgive me if my sentences run on, or are phrased oddly.

 
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Bafodalho ?? Senior Member
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05-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
It's anti-fun to be silenced by soraka
you have such a wrong notion of what is anti-fun, and what is anti-fun about soraka

comparing a single soft cc of a support, with a champ that can do 1000 damage (yes, i've been killed by this much amount on a bruiser build darius) x5 on your team, is so wrong dude...


oranges and apples...oranges and fking apples

 
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Momento Morì ?? Senior Member
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05-27-2012

Quote:
Why make his W do % of total damage, rather than just plain AD scaling
Er. The 200% is equivalent to just giving it +1.0 AD scaling.

 
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XENOClDE ?? Senior Member
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05-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
It's anti-fun to be silenced by soraka, but we decided that was worth it. It's also potentially team inefficient for Wish to give her a share of assist gold. Fun is always a balancing act. Gold distribution as a strategic decision will always be an issue that needs to be dealt with through team communication.

I am being a little brief here because I am on vacation and typing from a iPad, not because I'm trying to be snide. I respect your and cider helm's point, but in the end we thought darius's ult was worth implementing.

Ps I also dislike bike shorts.
CertainlyT, I want to apologize for my knee jerk reaction regarding Darius and the thread I made on his release complaining about his power. Honestly he isn't that bad as a champion, he is solid but not OP and I don't think his ult is anti-fun at all and I feel all of the animosity towards you as a person is not warrented, in the slightest.

As for the anti-fun argument, Karthus can do what Darius does, but from the time he hits 6 to end game, and he doesn't have to be present to do it. Karthus can time his ult to cross map KS kills he didn't even do anything in, Darius at least has to stack his passive on the target.

 
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MadBroInc ?? Member
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05-27-2012

Why does it matter what someone thinks about the champion?

Can people not read FACTS? The facts are clearly in the ****ing statistics on his skills, and his base stats.

If you can't comprehend this then stop playing League, or go back to class. Compare him with any other Off Tank/Tanky AD champion and go from there.

Simple?

Yes.

Effective?

Yes.

 
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Tilomentry ?? Senior Member
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05-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
It's anti-fun to be silenced by soraka, but we decided that was worth it. It's also potentially team inefficient for Wish to give her a share of assist gold. Fun is always a balancing act. Gold distribution as a strategic decision will always be an issue that needs to be dealt with through team communication.

I am being a little brief here because I am on vacation and typing from a iPad, not because I'm trying to be snide. I respect your and cider helm's point, but in the end we thought darius's ult was worth implementing.

Ps I also dislike bike shorts.
Wait are you kidding me? Certainly its frustrating and un-fun for the victim to be CCed as that the nature of CC since it takes away control from the victim and that's the worst thing you can do to a player is take control away from them. But the CC creates an opportunity for the user and his allies to capitalize on the brief moment where they have an advantage. And if they are successful, everyone shares the high it creates at taking advantage of the clutch play.

Basically everyone on the user's team finds fun in the user successfully CCing the enemy, but here we are talking about one champion stealing the fun away from his enemies AND his allies. How can you even make this comparison?

If you're going to defend Darius, then convince us why his style of play makes everyone on his team feel like a winner and not just himself, because right now, it feels like the only one who's getting the high from being successful, is him.

 
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Foomps ?? Senior Member
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05-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
It's anti-fun to be silenced by soraka, but we decided that was worth it. It's also potentially team inefficient for Wish to give her a share of assist gold. Fun is always a balancing act. Gold distribution as a strategic decision will always be an issue that needs to be dealt with through team communication.

I am being a little brief here because I am on vacation and typing from a iPad, not because I'm trying to be snide. I respect your and cider helm's point, but in the end we thought darius's ult was worth implementing.

Ps I also dislike bike shorts.
in the end you caused an uproar

 
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The Dead Cow ?? Senior Member
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05-27-2012

I feel like the main problem with Darius is that his ult refreshes and does true damage. His kit is fine, except for the refreshing. He has a finishing move that can do 700 true damage and if it gets the kill, which it most likely will, he can do at least another 700 true damage. If it was changed to not refreshing, or not true damage I believe it would be fine.