I am finding a Machete + Flask start with 21+ in utility to be very helpful in new the new jungle. The sustain from the utility tree is excellent, and after the first clear, Crystalline Flask keeps you at max hp pretty much on all future clears, with no additional gold cost. You can also pop it at the start of a fight like you would a health pot. The mana sustain is also useful.

Its basically like a gp10 item that spends the money it makes on potions, two health and one mana per back. For the first clear, its like 2 pots, and with a "leash" (team dmg on wolf/blue), I am making it through first clear just fine, though without enough hp to gank afterward.

Compared to starting Machete + Pots, you have a bit less sustain on that first clear/no chance of gank right away, but every future clear is much stronger and leaves you at full hp to gank, and keeps your mana up. Enemy junglers generally arent ganking right away either (at least in ~1500 elo), so I'm not finding my team behind because I waited to gank until after first clear.


What are your thoughts on this?
Is utility now the jungle sustain tree, or are people better off still going 21 defense?

Sounds pretty solid. Util gives a lot of nice advantages.
Free 2 GP/10.
Lifesteal AND spellvamp in 1 mastery, which affects ALL champs since all use attacks and spells.
Option to take Biscit for a bit of extra health (80hp).
Explorer's starting Ward for invade/counterjungle/etc.
3% perma movespeed and 2% out of combat certainly helps with ganking and general mobility.


That leaves you with 1 in Butcher(+2 minion dmg), and enough defense to get the +armor, bladed armor, better smite, preserverence, tough skin.

That's pretty sweet, I was looking for threads like this! That sounds pretty like a pretty nice jungle start! Discussion is always great, I was wondering if the Machette works for any jungler, cause the new items it can become

I'm still running boots + 3 on some junglers, machete + 5 on others. I've actually found that Mundo does well with a Bead + 6 + ward start, and it builds into the spirit stone as well.

I don't really like the new green tree - I use it for support builds, but the things I used to use it for feel like they're too deep now. Maybe it's that I need to go deeper into blue for some of the things I used to get with very little investment - I don't know.

Mundo can do fine with virtually any start. He feels like the fastest/best jungler in terms of camp clearing right now.

I think Machete/Flask isn't worth going down the Utility tree to be able to do. How that will work out in the long run depends on the way the meta and role of a jungler evolves. Right now it doesn't seem to be significantly different when it comes to junglers being tanks/initiators for their team, and doing that really needs the defense tree on most junglers.

How do you compensate the lack of points in defense tree, if you're playing a tank/initiator jungler like Malphite? Are the 21 points in utility really worth it?

I am very interested in this as well.

I found the new defense tree so good for tanks that I can't help taking 30 points on it lol

i think the questions are built in tanky vs needs item tanky, resource dependence (mana or no mana), and what do you lose/gain between each tree?

utility brings more early sustain, extra gold, movement speed, and more use of summoner spells (using flash + smite more isnt bad is it?)

I have found that heavy defence tree investment works well for Kha'zix and likely other assassin type junglers that are bound to arise. It might just be me, but they don't seem to get as much out of the offence tree as they do the defense. Sure the Offence tree helps with damage, but their main problem was survivability. I found that most assassins would be able to get into the fight no problem and burst a target down, but escaping or survivng? That was another story entirely!

Why Defense?
Bonus Tenacity. (Which can stack with Spirit of the Ancient Golem)
Effectiveness reduction on slows (Which also stacks with the new effect on boots of swiftness)
Bonus Armor and MR for nearby enemy champions
Damage Reduction from champions
Ignore 10% of a critical hit

Not to mention the existence of the Mercurial Scimitar for its Quicksilver Sash effect, MR, and AD!