North America - English

League of Legends Community

League of Legends Community > League of Legends > General Discussion
@CertainlyT I give up on Zed

First Riot Post
 
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.
NakedGranny ?? Senior Member
This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information This user has accepted the summoners code, click for more information
02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ÄHeroNamedHawke View Post
...
There's nothing wrong with Zed that isn't also wrong with LeBlanc and Kassadin...

Namely, burst-oriented items are outrageously expensive and defense is too cheap while also being disproportionately effective against burst.

(AD burst champions pretty much are anathema to the game's basic design philosophy anyway, but that's not really in the scope of this thread)

 
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.
NullDragon ?? Senior Member
This user has accepted the summoners code, click for more information
02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbidden Guest View Post
I have to say, for being the focus of his entire shtick, Zed's W is on a really long cooldown.
His E also reduces his W's cooldown by a LOT.

Hit three enemies in a teamfight, -3 cooldown on his W. Use your E twice during your clone's duration, cooldown will be 6 seconds. Use E one more time, and poof! Got your clone again after six seconds.

Six seconds between clones in a reasonable to accomplish scenario is pretty good.

 
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.
RentalDeception ?? Senior Member
This user has accepted the summoners code, click for more information
02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NullDragon View Post
His E also reduces his W's cooldown by a LOT.

Hit three enemies in a teamfight, -3 cooldown on his W. Use your E twice during your clone's duration, cooldown will be 6 seconds. Use E one more time, and poof! Got your clone again after six seconds.

Six seconds between clones in a reasonable to accomplish scenario is pretty good.

You're usually lucky to hit 2-3 enemies with both of your E's combined.

 
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.
NullDragon ?? Senior Member
This user has accepted the summoners code, click for more information
02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RentalDeception View Post
You're usually lucky to hit 2-3 enemies with both of your E's combined.
Partly why Zed's a high skillcap champion, yes.

 
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.
Streamline ?? Senior Member
This user has accepted the summoners code, click for more information
02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Unfortunately, this thread contains so much hyperbole that it is difficult for me to find anything to respond to. If you would like to have a rational discussion about Zed, I'm up for it, but please avoid statements like "If one enemy has QSS, Zed is useless" (there are other targets and you can wait until QSS is down -- it's called counterplay) or "I can't damage a person who starts cloth 5" (you yourself can open all consumables + ward and are manaless).

Since I'm not going to go into a detailed response here, I can give you a few pieces of context from my end:

*Zed's winrate (like most assassins) goes up with game length -- the longer the game, the more impactful he becomes;

*LoLKing data is highly inaccurate -- it's a fun site, but please do not quote it as evidence for Zed's power level (in either direction, it's entirely possible for a champion to show at 53% on LoLKing and be fine or weak);

*Zed has a very high mastery cap, perhaps the highest of any champion in our roster. It's easy to become frustrated if you play Zed and do not always see the success you do with other champions. If that is your personality type, you probably shouldn't play Zed. He is designed for a player that is interested in learning new strategies even on game 100, even if that means leaving a majority of fights thinking "I could have played that better;"

*We are at a pretty tanky point in the meta at the moment. There are a lot of times in draft where I look at the enemy team and think "this is not a good game for me to play Zed." To my eye, this isn't a bad thing. All champions, and assassins in particular, will fluctuate in success rate as the meta turns. One could argue that Zed's current level of success in a heavily defensive meta is probably a sign that he is over-tuned. I am more inclined to think that Live Design got his sustained damage values about right prior to release, but your interpretation may vary.

*The PBE re-distribution of power from Zed's E to Q is an attempt to make the choice between what to rank first (Q or E) and second (W or the other of QE) more meaningful. Flexibility is a form of power, in that it gives the player greater ability to adapt to their opponent's strategy. It's far from final, but I think the change is directionally sound, even if the numbers aren't quite tuned yet. For reference, a large number of our Live designers play Zed proficiently -- JHa, SmashGizmo, Scarizard (to the extent he can be called proficient at LoL), and RiotMilkCow -- so we are in good hands.
Yes, this is the tanky meta. Yes, there are other targets aside from the QSS target or Zhonya target ( YOU KNOW, THE NON CARRIES? SUPPORTS AND TANKS? ) Why don't I just waste my everything on garbage soaker champions? Good design Riot. Think before you speak.

 
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.
ShadeOfRed ?? Senior Member
This user has accepted the summoners code, click for more information
02-18-2013

Just something i'd like to throw out here.....

the comparison to Kennen's q seems a little off due to the fact that zed seems to have some animation windup before he throws the shuriken, whereas kennen's shuriken throw is almost instant. The delay between throwing would make it more difficult to hit.

 
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.
Skaarrjj ?? Senior Member
This user has accepted the summoners code, click for more information
02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RentalDeception View Post
Nope, E costs 50 energy at all ranks. Q costs 75/70/65/60/55.
Q has a drastically lower cooldown, you'll run out of energy faster spamming E than you will Q.

 
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.
tailsmph ?? Senior Member
This user has accepted the summoners code, click for more information
02-18-2013

Watching pro games has shown me that he is not nearly as weak as everyone thought he was
He was so band on release because none of the season 3 itemization was out yet.
But I still think that his atrocious mid-late game energy problems need to be solved

 
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.
kreepoto ?? Senior Member
This user has accepted the summoners code, click for more information
02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by tailsmph View Post
Watching pro games has shown me that he is not nearly as weak as everyone thought he was
He was so band on release because none of the season 3 itemization was out yet.
But I still think that his atrocious mid-late game energy problems need to be solved
imo its his energy issues that balance him out, if not he would be OP
as an assassin hes sopposed to get, break face, and get out quickly
wich is fairly easy to do with his great gap-closers
Edit: i main zed btw

 
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.
Zodryn ?? Member
This user has accepted the summoners code, click for more information
02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Zed's Q is the same speed and width as Kennen's Q. It is a bit shorter (88% of the range) but has the advantage of passing through with falloff, rather than destructing on collision. As NotBuzzJack mentioned, if we made the Q easier to hit, we would probably have to make it weaker in some other way, which is not something I'm personally keen to do.

I like jungle Zed, but tend to play him in lane myself, being a personal fan of support junglers. The build you listed seems solid, though I like to play Zed game by game. I have not been able to test the Blade of the Ruined King buffs yet on Zed, but I suspect it will end up being an efficient item on him. The only item I see omitted is Last Whisper, which is a phenomenal buy on Zed any time after mid-game. Without going into the math, % penetration is an undervalued stat on almost all champions at the moment -- I build Void Staff over Deathcap and actually build Last Whisper as a first big item on a champ like Graves against Taric lanes.
Thanks for your input! I'm not a platinum player or anything (still working on getting to 30), but I've been playing Zed almost exclusively, and I personally think he's fairly balanced. As you pointed out, the longer a game goes, the better he does. I've come back incredibly strong after being 1/9 by mid game (invasion went bad, and they had an ultra fed Akali...I ended 11/14/21 though, and I've had much better games). Another point you brought up is that he is tricky to play well. It's all about great shadow placement. I've chunked entire teams for 1/3 to 1/2 of their health with a well placed W and then EQE while running away and staying completely safe (word of the wise, don't group so tightly around Zed's shadows).

I do feel like he could use a very slight buff to his hp at earlier levels, but I think the damage shift makes sense. That being said, I think that his E damage should only drop by 15 or so at rank 5. The reason being that Q's cooldown is more than twice as long, which makes E a huge part of his sustained damage. In return, you could take off a bit of damage on Q's pass-through. Here's what I would like to see for Zed's stats:

Q - 75/115/155/195/235 on first enemy, 60/91/122/154/185 (down from the planned 60/92/124/156/188) on additional enemies.

E - 60/92/123/154/185 (up from 60/90/120/150/180)

Starting health 450 (up from 445, but correct me if I'm wrong).

This should still give the extra desirability to his Q while keeping E more useful for sustained damage. It should also make the first jungle clear just a bit easier. Also, for those that can't land Q, it's not because it isn't wide enough. It really isn't that much harder to land than other skillshots in my opinion.

Edit: I don't think the energy cost of his Q is a huge problem considering by the time the damage shift really affects things (rank 3 or 4) the energy cost has gone down closer to E. I don't think any of us Zed players would complain if his W got one second chopped off of its cooldown, but that may be too much.