yeah... i laned with cfang's kassidan before... didn't go so well. 2 melee vs ranged + melee can be bleh. he managed to keep pushing so i had no punt to tower opportunities.

i've had games where the kass/alistar combo was decent. however, kass isn't good at ganking until about lvl 6. alistar is stronger at ganking at lvl 2because he can utilize towers better at lower levels and gets weaker later on.

in the end, alistar lanes well with stunners/immobilizers like sion, morgana, ryze, etc.

bait, ive played your build quite a bit, and it just can't keep up unless you get a second person to run mana manip in lane with you. The manapool and not having chalice really screws you unless you are running all mana regen runes. Ive been matched with many of the previous top 100s in the last few games, and the only way I can continually harass and contribute is by rushing chalice, and following that with boots and by either sheen or sagering to frozen heart cause the manapool makes a huge difference.

The only team build I am having problems with now is any team with a solid Rammus - Dam you Big Mclarge Huge!

your problem is probably casting roar when you don't need it. if my ally's health is 85%+, i dont bother using roar. i let his natural regen take care of it.

i also don't pulverize constantly, i save it for weak minions so i can get gold or if i want to gank.

mana manip is the best mana item until you go back to town. for me, i often dont go back to town until level 5-6, which is fine.

chalice is only good for players who keep their mana low. for me, i keep it high. that's why i dont use chalice.

i don't pulverise constantly either, but i enjoy harassing with headbutts when I can around lvl 3-7 to push ranged dps and melee out of last hit range, and to build up damage for an easier gank later. Thats where my mana problems lie. I never overheal with roar. Mana Manip was not doing it for me the last 4 times I ran it, I don't know what it is... Also the MR from chalic is hard to ignore in the early game, whether or not you also go merc treads.

What's up Bait and Nico?

Had some frustrations on Ali recently, was in a losing streak in my solo queues (was used to a 2:1 win-loss rate)... tried some other heroes for a bit, but now I am back to using Ali as my main and hit a nice groove (solution: more queue dodging based on team comp, har).

I've enjoyed both of your discussions on Ali and it has been very useful. As for Mana Regen and such... I figured I'd share my current experiences with it:

I tried the Mana Manipulator route as well as some other starting item builds, but I've gone back to what I used to do when I first started playing Ali - which is buy Doran's Shield at the start with a health pot. I seem to lane strongest with the myriad of small bonuses that the shield provides, and it makes me a lot tougher in the event of a level 1 team fight.

I often still end up getting Mana Manipulator in the mid game because I am a fan of Soul Shroud as well, but I generally don't get any mana regeneration items before that and don't have an issue with MP regen. Granted this is solely because I am Utility specced w/ Meditation and have the majority of my seals as MP/5/18...

I find that being able to buy Sheen on your first trip back makes you very strong in the early laning phase. If you go Chalice you generally won't get it by your first trip back. As far as Ali's damage output goes he is strongest in the early part of the game and being able to get to Sheen faster maximizes this early advantage.

I can understand needing the mana if you spam Headbutt for harassment... and I tried playing this way a few times based on reading Nico's posts... but I've found I prefer to level up Pulverize first and use it conservatively, because having Pulverize at Rk 5 at level 9 instead of level 13+ makes a substantial difference for effective farming and solo Turret defense in that portion of the game. In particular at lvl 9 Ali can do one Rk 5 Pulverize and kill all the Spectre creeps at once (with one melee punch on the big one). If you don't have Pulverize ranked up until later the creeps are stronger and don't all die to one Pulverize. In addition having Pulverize ranked up first rather than HB slightly increases your damage output in teamfights since it's not difficult to hit two people with it at once.

As far as Magic Resistance goes... the Chalice MR is nice... but these days I always go Aegis after Sheen and if the enemy team is magic heavy you're going Merc Treads anyways as well.

One more thing...

I've been getting Flash/Exhaust lately as my summoner spells. Ghost is nice, and I used to use it... but lately I've really liked having Exhaust. It gives you another CC and ganking tool. It is especially useful in teamfights because Ali is generally at the head of the fight and is able to use it easier on ranged carries. In particular the prevalence of Twitch dominating games with SnP contributed to my choice to use Exhaust. Smart Twitches will open up with SnP at extreme range and sometimes the tank is the only one close enough to exhaust him.

Nice guide, Bait!

Like Nico however, I also run out of steam too early pushing lanes with what you've got up.

I almost always have to run Chalice to keep up with everyone else, ability usage wise, and with my typical team, I must rush Sheen to start downing towers, considering our team is doing what they are supposed to.

I feel not grabbing sheen early on inhibits you overall tower folding potential mid-game, where it matters, and that's one of the prime points I disagree with you about.

There are a lot of ways to play alistar, but really I think what determines your item build should be how the game is progressing, the hero mix, and the masteries and runes you go. Since I am focused on Utility spec, with flash and ghost, and a bit of defense the CD% reduction from utility and the extra mana regen helps aid my build with chalice. Getting early mana up and shorter CDs also helps my build.

I typically am running around towers moreso than hitting them to keep their ranged dps back, and melee so that my partner in the lane can hit the tower freely with the creepwave. This is a bouncer like mentality, that keeps pressure on my opponents while helping us down towers. Alistar will always attack slow regardless of Sheen etc. so there is no need to rush it or grab it for last hitting if you are already good at last hitting, and ganking opponents in lane.

Frozen Heart / or at least Glacial Stone (shroud? always forget name) gives you a huge boost if you can save the 1600+ gold for it, the sage ring, give you mana to fuel chalice and CD reduction to keep the pain going.

I may be one of the few to max headbutt first, as it seems to make a difference in team fights, the bit of extra damage makes the kills quicker when I punt them back to the vultures, or can often times yield a lot of gold in last hits for kills. I don't try to steal from the carries, but if I am in range and can seal the deal I will.

If you want to have a nice Item collection by the end game, or are going more straight team support defensive like Bait (which is totally recommended and commendable) this is a great build. If you want to be a little more seat of your pants and be a bit more self-centered as a tank, try chalice/boots/frozen heart(sage ring first), I end games quickly and typically dont even finish the heart by the time its over. In longer games, it is harder to farm, but if you control dragon, and at least mid-ground for lanes, you can rake up gold for Sheen/Aegis/etc.

i find sheen doesn't really help with farming.

1. pulverize + last hit works just as well if not better.
2. in order to proc sheen, you have to waste mana on stuff like roar even when you don't need it.


frozen heart kind of sucks. it's a subtractive debuff, not divisive. the cd reduction is great but it doesn't do anything vs mages. mages are more common in high elo games so soul shroud is my choice.

on someone like twitch with ~150% attack speed buff, -25% = 125% instead, your opponent's not gonna care.

the benefits of frozen heart are armor, mp pool, and cd reduction, which are great on alistar. however, there are alternatives that i feel are better.