Just watch the vids trust me the mana isnt as big of an issue as you think.

This was one of those games were it was hard to get a kill because they had slows and high hp but in the end it helped us get the level advantage even though i wasnt making OMFG BBQ gold my whole team was higher than they were because they constantly had to be cautious and heal.

Looks fun. Wish it were higher res so I could see better.

I've been playing w/phoenix more early/mid and am impressed by how helpful it is w/ganks. That said, I think tiger is even better at ganks....but Phoenix has the added benefit of farming/push power. Without doing any theorycrafting, it does seem that phoenix peaks earlier for ganking, though tiger is the best for late ganking. Try this: load up a tiger stance on your way into combat, switch to bear as you rush in, then go right back into tiger after you hit. You will have some amazing gank-burst damage.

One other advantage for Phoenix in ganks, though, is that you can bear, phoenix, then run around to the other side of them while they are stunned while still hitting them w/aura. This sets you up better for a longer chase.

I am no Udyr purist I think the great thing about him is his versatility. One thing I'm toying around w/in my head is whether 2 or 3 ranks in turtle does enough for regen mid-late. It only takes a couple ranks to jungle effectively, and the hp gain is probably less important most of the time. I can imagine a very solid build that leaves turtle at 3, but still gets it early. The burst on maxed tiger-phoenix would be really fun...I think I'm going to play now

I have tried it before and its why i think its 2nd best the main thing about pheonix is your going to get the burst damage no matter what gear every 3 hits and everytime you stance dance it adds up when you dont have very good gear. Late game 1v1 tiger beats pheonix but the more people you add into the fight pheonix gets better and better and it happens alot as you seen in that video. Heres another thing people dont take into consideration when chasing a hero you arent always hitting them as much as you can be with pheonix they still take damage because of the pulse fire so you are always doing damage chasing or standing still hitting and lets not forget all the creeps you kill while fighitng the hero because you cant help but kill them with the aoe just adds for more money. What I do suggest is if the game gets really bad and you need Solo damage for backdooring etc which does happen only take 1 level of turtle and max tiger before you put more in it after bear and pheonix is maxed. Ive tried all of the builds and all skill builds this one gives me the most success at ganking farming harrassing and laning all together just better over all for TEAM game i will say again NOT SOLO but TEAM game which is how this should be played.

Both teams were premades we have fought each other before.

I think good optional item for yout phoenix style is Guinsoo's Rageblade because of rising ability power and attack speed, good damage too. What is your opinion on this item?

Anyway your style is something exactly for me. I am going to try this as soon as it will be possible! Good work.

Last time i tried ability power it didnt scale well and didnt do much but 1 item that is BEYOND godly for this build is blade of legend (100 bonus damage every few hits and cant be dodged) man if you can get this item and a blood razor there is no hero that you wont kill. It over all adds more burst damage and sustained damage.

You probably mean sword of divine.

I've been taking Phoenix to 5 earlier, and I agree w/you Wolfy...it is a lot stronger mid game. It also has all of those great utility/group aoe benefits (pushing, better chasing b/c you can maneuver w/out attacking, getting double kills). Maybe tiger would be worth it midgame if I rushed a DPS item, but as it stands, I prefer Phoenix. I've started getting 2, sometimes 3 points in turtle (depending on who I am laning), and that seems to do enough for me mana-wise. Build order depends, but I often go something like:

1 turtle (tank golem for lane partner before 1st wave),
2phoenix 1
3bear 1
4 turtle 2
5Phoenix 2
6 bear 2
7 phoenix 3
8 bear 3
9 tiger (to give some burst when tagging someone)
10 Phoenix 4
11 Bear 4
12 Phoenix 5
13 Bear 5
14 Tiger 2
15 Tiger 3
16 Tiger 4
17 Tiger 5
18 Turtle 3

I also sometimes end up w/turtle 3 or 4 earlier. 4 is also a good number in tiger. With even a little attack speed boost, the attack speed buff is probably wasted at that point, so you're only really sacrificing .25 attack worth of damage per tiger proc. Not much to sacrifice.

Liked the videos, and it definitely influenced what I am playing around with The thing I like about turtle is that it enables more stance-dancing (and monkey stance buffing), and also lets you be even more aggressive when you need to be. I also like to sweep the jungle around 5 or 6, looking for gank opportunities, etc, and turtle is great for that. But a little bit seems to go a long way (even more than for Phoenix stance). Thanks for the advice.

I did rhosta sorry still get the names confused.

But yea glad to see others are noticing how important pheonix is for udyr. Mid game and early game are EXTREMLY important for people to just ignore it to go straight end game build they hinder not only themselves but their teamates. If you arent playing with a person tha NEEDS golem buff on your team you dont even need turtle unless you have a terrible lane. If your with a teamate that relies on golem buff ie nasus you could be kind enough and let them take it other wise golem is more than enough for mana regen on offense.

Also i thinkt he cheap items are what make the pheonix build soo useful you get so many good cheap items tha your putting out so much dps that most heroes cant handle mid game and does great damage late game.

Fave Items:
Berzerkers (MUST HAVE)
Malady (MUST HAVE)
zeal (great cheap early damage and turns into 2 great items trinity and phantom dancer)
Sword of Devine (cheap great extra proc damage for your fast attacking hero)
Frozen Mallet (again great slow and hp and you can take one of 2 options after phage tf or mallet depending on what your team needs)
Force of Nature (again good resistance for casters and 8% run speed awesome for udyr)
Banshees veil (enough said)
Black Cleaver (AWESOME item late game)
Infinity Edge (great late game)
Mandreds Blood Razor ( MUST HAVE LATE DPS ITEM)

Off chance items
Starks Fervor (if you need more life steal awesome item with - armor and buffs team)